In the UConn – SIU game Friday, one play had me wondering…

During one trip down the court, A1 received a pass and had his back to the defender. B1 ran up behind him, stepped on the back of A1's shoe, and bumped him from behind. A1, taking a step forward because of the contact, stepped out of his shoe. B1 was standing on the heel. No-call...

I know I wouldn't normally stop a game because a player lost a shoe. But I do believe I'd have a whistle in this case. The actions of B1 placed A1 at a very distinct disadvantage that couldn't be easily rectified. Then, because of the no-call, play continued, placing team A at a disadvantage. At a minimum, I expected a "hold" or even a "push."

I was wondering if I missed something here. Did anyone see this play?

And how bout' them SIU Salukis? The dawgs just didn't have the perimeter shot. I guess not everyone showed up ready to play...watch for us in another decade. And Coach Weber says he's gonna stay next year. We’ll see.

I did not see the game, but if there was a shoe on the floor in the middle of the paint with players moving quickly through the lane, I would stop the game, using the same principles for stopping the game when a player's glasses come off or a player becomes injured.

WHOA!!!!! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!

One minute you are telling us that you would not stop the game (even if the ball was dead and in the official's hand) if a shoe is untied, but you WILL stop a live ball play just because a shoe comes off of a foot?

And no, it is not the same as an injury, and I don't think that the shoe will become broken to a point where it can't be worn after replacement at the next legitimate stoppage of play.

Bigwhistle, Its funny, i thought about saying something, but i choose not to. And here you go and make the comparison. You just had to start trouble, didn't you?

We all have a bad day.
 

Fellas,
Mark T. may just be in a little slump today.
He'll come out of it.
mick

come on guys i am ROTFWL. Mark, i would come to your defense but i know you can handle it. :)

I can't see that the player with the ball stepping out of a shoe that is being held in place by a defender is the same as a loose shoe rolling around anywhere on the floor. But a loose shoe IS undoubtedly a danger, as is a player in one sock foot.

But none of that is the same as an untied shoelace. DeNucci's point is that players should keep their laces tied, and if they don't, it's their own lookout. That is in no way comparable to a guy getting his shoe removed from his foot involuntarily.

I've taken a shot or two at Mark De in my time, but I don't think he deserves this one!

If player's are supposed to keep their shoes tied, When are they supposed to tie them if they become untied? Since you will not allow time for them to tie them on the court. Would you rather see a sub come in for that player, which will take the same amount of time if you stop and let the player tie his shoe during a dead ball. I don't understand the Logic in not allowing a player to take a few seconds and tie his shoe. This allows you as an official to make conversation with a player. I can't believe that a simple untied shoe is breaking the rules.

I am being consistent. Team A has control of the ball in its front court. A1 is the midcourt area when his shoe comes off. A1 can stop what he is doing and put his shoe on. In the posted play, A1's opponent used nefarious means to pull A1's shoe off during play in the lane. While this is all happening a shot goes up in the lane, there are at least five or six players in the lane going after the rebound. One or more of these players could step on A1's shoe and possibly get hurt. This is not different if instead of A1's shoe being on the floor, A1's eye glasses or hearing aid could be on the floor. This situation is not even close to being like A1's shoe coming off while he is out in the midcourt area.

I gotta ask.
 

Mark T.,
How did you determine this? <li>Logic<li>Common Sense<li>Rule

:)
mick

Re: I gotta ask.
 

Read my post of 7:59pm.

Re: Re: I gotta ask.
 

Yeah, I did. That's why I had to ask. A shoe in the lane is like the eyeglass rule? I don't follow, but then, I'm old.
Since there is no shoe rule and you don't like common sense, does that leave logic?
mick

Mark, Its rare to see eye glasses and hearing aids. If they have eyeglasses, they are durable. I wouldn't stop play if a players eyeglasses or hearing aid was on the floor. As far as the danger of another player getting injured, not much different than a player down on the floor during rebounding. As i have said, during a dead ball, i will allow tieing of shoes, tuck shirts in, clean glasses, put in contacts, fix the hair tie, etc.

You guys are something!
 

Some of you guys crack me up!
Why not just use common sense and if
you are going to err, err on the side
of caution and protection.
Glasses can be broken, (maybe not replaced)
players can fall over them and could easily get hurt with a shoe in the lane.
If ANYTHING is remotely dangerous, STOP THE GAME!

Are you kidding: "Its rare to see eye glasses"

At least three or four times a year (roughly 350 games per every twelve months), I have a situation where a player has his/her glasses come off or a lense gets popped out of the frame.

And to withhold the ball from play to allow a player to tie shoelaces, tuck shirts into shorts, clean glasses or fix a hair tie is flat out against the rules. If a player wants to do that they can do it anytime he/she desires, if the player wants the game to stop for that purpose, the player had better be prepared to request a timeout. Replacing a contact is another matter because it is covered by rule.

I am being consistent. Team A has control of the ball in its front court. A1 is the midcourt area when his shoe comes off. A1 can stop what he is doing and put his shoe on. In the posted play, A1's opponent used nefarious means to pull A1's shoe off during play in the lane. While this is all happening a shot goes up in the lane, there are at least five or six players in the lane going after the rebound. One or more of these players could step on A1's shoe and possibly get hurt. This is not different if instead of A1's shoe being on the floor, A1's eye glasses or hearing aid could be on the floor. This situation is not even close to being like A1's shoe coming off while he is out in the midcourt area. [/QUOTE]

Wow MTD...."Nefarious". I had to look that one up.

Nefarious - Infamous by way of being extremely wicked.

or

Nefarious - Wicked in the extreme; abominable; iniquitous; atrociously villainous; execrable; detestably vile.

That my friend IS a 50 cent word! :)

Larks - Vocabulary Challenged

Well Mark, you still have not given me a rule saying we cannot hold play. I cannot recall the last time i had glasses on the floor. I don't think i have ever had College or HS varsity game with glasses on the floor. Maybe from time to time ( very rare) i might have seen someone ware sports glasses.
Are you saying in a College or HS varsity game, the ball is in the air and/or players rebounding, glasses go to the floor and you Will Beep, get your glasses, no basket, we go to the AP for team possession? I believe play will take care of itself.

Let me address your second paragraph first. If a player goes down in the paint with an injury, how do you handle stopping play? If a player's glasses comes off in the paint, wouldn't you use the same criteria to stop play as you would for an injury? Of course you would. Depending on the situation, you might sound your whistle immediately, or wait until team control is established.

Now your first paragraph. I do not have my copy of the 1962-63 National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada in front of me, but if you go to page 13 of the 2000-02 NFHS Basketball Handbook and go to the year 1963. You will see "no time allowed to tie shoe lace, etc." In a side note you will see that the "force out" was eliminated during that school year also. If my memory is correct it was almost ten years before the NBA eliminated the force out.

As I have stated before, the Rules Committee placed an editorial comment in the rules stating that officials could no longer stop the game or withhold the ball from play so that a player could tie his shoe laces be deleting the rule that allowed the officials to do so. That is pretty clear to me. The Nat'l. Bkt. Comm. of the U.S. and Canada, was the predecessor to the NFHS and NCAA Rules Committees, and its rules and interpretations, are still enforce unless there is a subsequent change in the rules or interpretation.
The NFHS and NCAA has never made a rules or interpretation change pertaining to the situation, therefore the rule is still in effect. Since I do not have the 1962-63 rules book in front of me I cannot say for sure, but if my memory is correct, the deletion was made in a section of Rule 2, Officials and Their Duties.

I real regret that I do not have a copy of the 1961-62 rules book to compare with the 1962-63 book, that would be more enlightening. I know that I am repeating myself from other threads, but just because a Question (NFHS), Casebook (NFHS), or A.R. (NCAA) have been dropped from the latest rules book or casebook, does not mean that they are not longer applicable. These Questions, Casebook Plays, and A.R.'s are still are applicable. This logic also applies when a rule previously stated something was legal, and then the Rules Committee deleted the language that allowed something to be legal and made an editorial comment stating that the purpose of the deletion was to make what was previously legal now illegal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Quote:

[i] Let me address your second paragraph first. If a player goes down in the paint with an injury, how do you handle stopping play? If a player's glasses comes off in the paint, wouldn't you use the same criteria to stop play as you would for an injury? Of course you would. Depending on the situation, you might sound your whistle immediately, or wait until team control is established. Ok I think we are on the same page. Or let them play on b/c the players clear and the player who lost the glasses can pick them up, and if this is the situation then i would stop play so he could adjust his glasses. but if you go to page 13 of the 2000-02 NFHS Basketball Handbook and go to the year 1963. You lost me here. ?

Mark, I am a bit surprised about so many players wareing glasses where you officiate. Is it because there is a difference between lower level vs higher level, (i.e. HS/college vs HSJV on down), and/or during season vs off season?

I say let 'em put the shoes on but don't let'em tie them!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bart Tyson

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Quote: [i] Let me address your second paragraph first. If a player goes down in the paint with an injury, how do you handle stopping play? If a player's glasses comes off in the paint, wouldn't you use the same criteria to stop play as you would for an injury? Of course you would. Depending on the situation, you might sound your whistle immediately, or wait until team control is established. Ok I think we are on the same page. Or let them play on b/c the players clear and the player who lost the glasses can pick them up, and if this is the situation then i would stop play so he could adjust his glasses. but if you go to page 13 of the 2000-02 NFHS Basketball Handbook and go to the year 1963. You lost me here. ? Mark, I am a bit surprised about so many players wareing glasses where you officiate. Is it because there is a difference between lower level vs higher level, (i.e. HS/college vs HSJV on down), and/or during season vs off season?

Where did I lose you? Go to page 13 of the 2000-02 Edition of the NFHS's Basketball Handbook, and go to the paragraph for year 1963; this paragraph addresses you concerns in your posting that I was responding to about a rules reference.

And while I agree with you that college players do not wear glasses, you will find players at the high school level and below wearing glasses all of the time. Even in CYO' men's recreational leagues, and AAU and YBOA nationals, you will find players wearing glasses. Not everybody has perfect vision like basketball officials do.

It is that same size as the Rules, Casebook, Officials Manual, and S&I books. It is published every other year (the opposite year of when the Officials Manual is published).

Howard (who is my PBOA assignor) -- Please don't give me Bart as a partner. I don't want to be held liable for the injuries resulting from above!

From what I've read over the years, eventhough I would stop play with glasses on the floor, I would work with Bart in a blink!
mick

Ok, I'll give you the same question i gave Mark ( which i think we both ended up agreeing). Ball in air, rebounding, or shot, glasses fall to floor. Are you going to, Beep, pick up your glasses, no basket, AP for team possession?

Bart,
During the high activity of a live ball, I never saw the darn things fall.
mick

Thats funny, Maybe you need to ware you glasses! :)

Can't.
Fell off.
Coach stepped on 'em.
Couldn't see 'em.
(<i>Was that a foul I heard?</i>)

Mark,

I just can't/won't resist this. I believe it was you who posted earlier that you don't remember your laces EVER coming untied during a game. You call 350 games a year, and you've been doing it for what, 20, 30 years? I know your schedule has gotten bigger over the years, but still...not once? Ever? I think I could super-glue the knots and still have them come untied once in 5,000 games.
Just curious as to what your secret is. Not even double knots work that well for me.

jb

jb,
Square bows are the answer... sorta like a square knot. ;)
mick

Mark, are you using slippers?

Mark uses those velcro shoes. :D

Okay, okay, maybe I over-reacted a little. But, I can't imagine NOT stopping the play with a pair of glasses or a hearing-aid loose in the middle of things. If it's out at half-court, and the kid is trying to find it, and there are no other players around, I'd keep an eye on it. But in the key, stop the play!! Glasses and hearing aids are EXPENSIVE, and slippery and breakable with lots of little parts and shards of glass everywhere -- not my idea of a good time. I think I would try to hold off a second if a shot is imminent, but I don't see why going to the arrow for possession would be a huge problem. That seems a lot less messy than cleaning up a broken whatever, or rescuing a player with a turned ankle or bruised tailbone.

Okay, okay, maybe I over-reacted a little. But, I can't imagine NOT stopping the play with a pair of glasses or a hearing-aid loose in the middle of things. If it's out at half-court, and the kid is trying to find it, and there are no other players around, I'd keep an eye on it. But in the key, stop the play!! Glasses and hearing aids are EXPENSIVE, and slippery and breakable with lots of little parts and shards of glass everywhere -- not my idea of a good time. I think I would try to hold off a second if a shot is imminent, but I don't see why going to the arrow for possession would be a huge problem. That seems a lot less messy than cleaning up a broken whatever, or rescuing a player with a turned ankle or bruised tailbone. [/B][/QUOTE]

Jewel,
Yikes, with all that potential, there is a lot more stress in this game than I think I can handle!

I'll tell ya one thing about glasses, though. When a kid loses them and he is not wearing a band to hold 'em on, I really am aggravated.
mick

Maybe, it depends on the level of ball. I don't recall working games with players wearing glasses or hearing aids, at least not in the last 7-12yrs. Maybe in younger age ball, you could get away with stopping the game. I do believe in the games i work the coach would blow a gasket if i wipe a made basket and then give the ball to the other team with 10seconds left in the game and being down by 2 points. So, I guess i can understand in games of HSJV and lower b/c the games are not as important. And please don't misunderstand me by saying "not as important", i think you know what i mean.

Bart,
This Year, I only had one occurrence of glasses on the floor. It was a varsity game, the other team scored and we held up play for the player to put 'em back on. He left the floor to straighten the frames. ...No safety band.
It was an easy fix.
mick

It must be all the Carrots we eat in Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, and Texas.

I didn't say I would wipe a made basket! What I said was, I would wait, if at all possible, to see if I could let a shot go. It makes no sense at all to blow just as the shot goes up, since with a made basket, possession is predetermined.


I would only blow on the rebound if it was absolutely necessary, ie, glasses on the floor in the paint, and 8 players jumping up and down (one other player is blind and trying to avoid a collision, the last player is confused about whether the play stopped when the glasses flew off, and is looking at the coach to see what to do). In facct, what I would do is just what I said I would do -- treat it just like an injured player!

I don't think we are that far apart. first of all i believe if a player lost his glasses; 1) i don't think they would be sooo blind that they would not be able to reach down to find them; 2) i think the action would end within seconds anyway and player would be able to pickup his glasses; 3) if HIS team got the rebound and held play so he could put on his glasses then there is no need to blow the whistle; 4) if HIS team got the rebound and held play and he was still having problems then YES i would stop play; 5) if the other team got the rebound and headed the other end of the court then again no need to stop play as in your own words treat like an injured player; 6) if the other team got the rebound and imediately put back up then tuff break; 7) if the other team got the rebound and pulled out and the player was having trouble with the glasses then YES i will stop play.
So, what do you think? Is this OK? :)