I don't want this to be perceived as Terping, i.e. the practice well-practiced by many Maryland fans of blaming the officials every time they lose a game, especially to Duke. That said, I have a question regarding the game last night. With about 15 seconds to go in the IU/Duke game, IU had a spot throw-in. The thrower shuffled quite a bit on the sideline before inbounding the ball. If the college rule is what the Fed rule used to be, i.e. a travelling violation is possible, then the T really blew that one. If not, if the rules are the same for both orgs, then it's a good play, as I don't think he violated the three-foot box.

As an aside, since I don't have my rule-book handy right now, could somebody refresh me on the Fed three-foot box? Is it 1.5 feet on each side, or is it three feet in one direction; i.e. if a player were to move two feet to his left, would he then be allowed to move back up to five feet to his right?

jb

jb,
The spot is the same in Fed and NCAA.
It is three feet wide.
Exactly where the edges are is entirely up to your judgement.
mick

I don't know what you mean by "what the Fed rule used to be". The current NF rule (and it's been this way since I can remember) is that if the inbounder (I refuse to use the NF designation "thrower-in" - it makes me want to "thrower-up") moves off the spot, it's an inbound violation. It's never a "travel", despite the incorrect mechanic used for this by some officials.

Actually there are no limitations on how far a player can stritch to his right or left. The rule only requires at least one foot on or above the 3' wide area. As an example the player could use as much as 9' feet (i.e. 3' to the right and 3' to the left) as long as at least one foot never leaves the 3' area.

I agree with Mark and Bart. Traveling is not possible and both feet must leave the spot for a violation to be called.

BTW, jbduke, I was extremely disappointed in the way the Duke players and coaches acted after the game was over. Duke had this game won with 3 minutes to play and gave it away. They lost the game, not the officials. I can hardly wait to see Coach K do another ACC sportsmanship spot. :(

Not quite - the whole "lane" is three feet wide - not three feet in each direction from the center (which would be six feet wide).

From what I saw, K went to restrain his player, and took a quick/minor verbal shot at the refs; I think his demeanor was "acceptable" after such a loss.

You must be misunderstanding me. The lane is 3'. So, I have the ball. I move my right foot to the left edge of the 3' lane(still in the lane) and my left foot to the left, out of the lane, as far as i can while keeping my right foot on the edge of the lane. Now, lets say my left foot is 3'(could be more than 3') to the left, outside of the lane.
I have now used 6' of area. Now, repeat this same move to the right. I would be 3' to the right edge of the lane. Hence a total of 9'. I did this all within 5 seconds.

BKBRef,

I'm not going to let you, or any other Carolina or Maryland fan bait me into blaming the game on the refs. Indiana took the game from Duke, and they were very deserving of that victory.

That said, I will respond to your 'extreme disappointment' in Duke's players and coaches. As for the coaches, i don't know what the hell you're talking about. Matt Christensen definitely stepped out of line by yelling at Benedict as he walked past the end of the Duke bench toward the locker room. Coach K noticed what was going on, and walked down to restrain Matt and tell him to calm down.

As for Christensen, I will not defend his actions. What I will do is try to step into his shoes for a moment, and ask you to do the same. He watches Chris Duhon get whistled on what was obviously a guess with 11 seconds left. I know it was a guess because the replay clearly showed a clean rip of the ball. Then he watches Boozer get fouled at the end, with no call. How do I know boozer was fouled when replays were inconclusive? Because in the post-game press conference, Jarred Jeffries said, "I grabbed him and got a little piece of the ball."

Duke lost the game. Indiana took it from them. Whatever phrase you want to use. The point is that somebody who's given a tremendous amount to the program was very hurt and disappointed. Certainly, he could have channeled his emotions in a much better way. But I, for one, would appreciate it if you would come down off your moral highhorse, allow some humanity to factor into your analysis and righteous indignation regarding this event, and cut the kid some friggin slack.

Furthermore, of all of the fan bases in college basketball, I would expect Carolina fans to be the last to comment negatively on the behavior of any other team's bench players. Carolina's cheerleaders, er, bench warmers, have been the laughing stock of the ACC for as long as I've been watching college basketball, until this season of course, during which there was very little worthy of cheering about. Sleep safely in your glass house.

I hope your criticisms of our program make you feel better about the failures of your own. And if you're planning to respond to that line by ripping off a list of all of Carolina's great accomplishments over the last 35 years just for my benefit, don't bother. I'm well aware, as that's all most of your fans have had to talk and write about this year.

jb

Let's see now,Dukester......
1)You're not going to blame the refs?You do,however,just have to mention a foul on Duke with 11 seconds to go that that was "a guess".Then you have to tell us all about the refs not calling the obvious foul on Boozer at the end.You certainly did a fine job of not blaming the refs!
2)You are not going to defend Christensen's actions?Read your post again.You spend two full paragraphs defending his actions.They were indefensible and unsporsmanlike,whether you like it or not!
3)Then we get the old "well,North Carolina's(or insert any team that you like)fans are worse than OUR fans".

I think that you need to learn how to differentiate between being an official and being a fan.Btw,I'm not a fan of any ACC school-I could care less.I am an official.I do get sick of obvious fans like you whining and crapping on the officials when their team loses.

Jurassic Referee,

What I did in my post (which I read SEVERAL times before submitting it), was look at the whole situation, and not simply nail a college kid to a wall by looking at his reaction in a vaccuum. I prefaced my comments by saying that Christensen was way out of line. What I wanted to do was try to understand his reaction. I think that the events at the end of the game go a long way toward achieving that end.

Let me add a couple of points as a fan that I did not include in my first post. Duke shot 10-19 from the free throw line, and was out-rebounded by about 20 in the game. They did not display much if any intensity in the second half against a team that was ready to beat the world if they needed to. Given these facts, how could any reasonable person argue that Duke should have won the game, under any circumstances?

Indiana is no less deserving of that win than they would have been if the calls Christensen was upset about had gone the other way. It's interesting to me, though, that in attempting to explain why christensen acted as he did, that you think I was defending him, per se. Well, yes, Alex, I'll take semantics for $1000. I was 'defending' him to the extent that I don't think that a college kid in that situation should have his character attacked because of one mistake. If you think that I was 'excusing' his actions, then you're wrong. There is no excuse. It seems to me that what's bugging you is that deep down you have some sympathy, and maybe empathy for the kid. I noticed that you didn't take issue with my assessments of the plays brought up, you were just affronted by the idea that I would bring them up int he first place. For anyone, duke supporter or not, to have those feelings does not make one a whiner, it does not mean one is 'blaming the refs' for the loss. It means one is a thinking, feeling individual. If these things make me a whiny fan, or a bad official, I'll be able to sleep soundly with that.

You know what I get 'sick of'? Officials like you who are stuck in this twilight zone where other officials never make mistakes, and where those who happen to note those mistakes are whiny fans, or officials who can't separate being a fan and being an official. Maybe you're so perfect that you've never kicked a call that you felt affected the outcome of a game. I am not in that boat. I recognize my fallability, and, though i try not to dwell on it, it certainly bothers me when I miss an important call. And I'm not going to get my feelings hurt if another official thinks I missed an important call; nor do I think that a colleague expressing such an opinion constitutes me getting 'crapped on.' It's all in the way that such a thing is expressed, and I think that it can be done constructively. Your comments imply to me a fundamental disagreement with this idea.

So yes, I, an official and a good one, think that that crew missed a couple of important calls down the stretch. However, I am well-aware of the tremendous ability of these men to make it as far as they have in their careers, and that game has not diminished my respect for them as officials one iota. And I'd be willing to bet that if any of these guys read my comments, they would not feel that they'd been 'crapped on.' They wouldn't have made it as far as they have if their skins were that thin.

I guess that I'm just glad that you and people that share your feelings on this and similar issues are not big-time supervisors, because if you were, nobody would ever get any better, because they'd always be thinking that they'd called the perfect game.

As far as your as your assertions that I trotted out the standard, "our fans are better than your fans," that's just a blatant twisting of words. I didn't say that Duke's fans are as a rule better than UNC's. What I did was inform BKBRef that a Carolina fan complaining about Duke bench decorum was equivalent to a U of Cincinnati fan giving grief to a fan of any school because one of that school's players had had a run-in with the law. But since you're 'not an ACC fan,' and 'could care less,' oh, never mind.

Dukie,let me get this straight!
1)the T REALLY BLEW a "travel" violation on IU with 15 seconds to go.
2)Chris Duhon get's whistled on an OBVIOUS GUESS with 11 seconds left.
3)Boozer GET'S FOULED at the end with NO call.
Note--these are all points that you made in the posts above.Nosiree,Dukie,I think that is representative of a fan's whining-not an officials's mentality.
I think we can now safely change "Terping" to "Duking".:D

Jurassic Referee,

This is my last forray into this particular battle.

Your ad hominem attacks have gotten ridiculous. You've totally mischaracterized me and my arguments by taking statements totally out of context. You have repeatedly refused to respond to overarching ideas and responses to your attacks, instead choosing to highlight statements that, when taken in isolation, you find offensive. (For the record, if I culled through my own posts, I'm sure that i could take out particular sentences which, devoid of context, I would find offensive as well.) This tactic doesn't make you the voice of reason, it makes you a rhetorical charlatan.

Check the ENTIRE first post. I started this thread with a request for an NCAA rule. I was obviously unclear on the rule. Although it was implied already, I made the mistake of making explicit the idea that if the old rule applied, then a call had been missed, blown, kicked, whatever. I made no claim one way or another, since I did not know for sure what the rule is for NCAA. I didn't need to make that addendum. I didn't think, however, that someone would later take the sentence out of context to attack me. Clearly, that presumption proved naive. My initial leaning on what the rule is was confirmed when people responded that the rules are the same for Fed and NCAA: clearly no violation on the throw-in.

As for my general attitude, if after reading my last post, you still truly believe me to be a whiner, you're certainly entitled to the calculus that has led you to that point. I'm just glad I use a vastly different one when analyzing events and ideas in attempting to reach conclusions.

Make sure to keep your eyes closed so you don't get sand in them.

jbduke, I have to admit this is giving me some laughs. :). Now, you sound as if you are a little upset. Just because BktBallRef had an opinion about the actions of Duke? All he said was he was disappointed. A lot of us were disappointed. However, I don't think we are prepared to demand lashes with the whip. Now, if i am mistaken about you being upset then just disregard this post.

Holy Whuh!
 

jb,
I'm not sure what you said, but with all those syallables, I gotta believe what you said.

JR,
That was impressive, yo?

mick

My last foray,too.Good luck,and keep on Duking!:D

Re: Holy Whuh!
 

Impressive as hell,mick.The only problem is that he coulda cut out about 10,000 words by just saying "JR,you're an idiot".Woulda saved him a lot of time,too.Then again,maybe the poor guy has MTDJS(Mark T.DeNucci Jr. Syndrome).
-Just kidding,Dukie-don't get excited!Mark,you can get excited,if you want to!:D

This guy must be Cameron Crazy!
 

Wow! Talk about an overreaction! You're some piece of work! All I did was say that I was disappointed in the way the Duke players and some of the coaches handled themsleves after the game. You're a Duke fan, so I wondered how you felt about it. I'm not trying to bait anyone in too anything. But if I were, you would obviously be easy prey.

Yes, I'm a Carolina fan. But I'm not one of the fanantics that you see posting on the ACC boards. Seems to me that I'm handling our season a lot better than you're handling this loss. I watch the game as a fan and an official. I'm an adult, I can do that. You obviously can't. Personally, I have a problem with the way Dougherty is always standing and yelling at the players and the officials. Quite frankly, I think he needs to sit his *** down. But he pales in comparison to other coaches. I was glad when Rasheed Wallace turned pro, as I thought his chidlish tirades were an emabarassment to the program. I can make those judgments or listen to others do the same without blowing a gasket.

Seems to me that you have some real anger management issues. You can't have a simple discussion where people disagree with you or say something you don't like without blowing your top. You might want to speak with your local Methodist minister about this. I hear there are some excellent ones on the Duke campus. If not, I know a couple that graduated from there they would love to help you. Just let me know.

Be well.

jbduke, we all like to have fun on this board. I would like to keep your input on this board, because you have brought some interesting discussion to the board. So, I dare, no I DOUBLE DOG DARE you to come on this discussion and admit you just may have, just a little bit, over reacted.
And JR, you go sit in the corner until the next topic.

Oooooo, Bart! I haven't DOUBLE DOG DARED anyone in a long time!! My hero! :D

I'll be good,Bart-I promise!:DActually,ol' Dukie doesn't have to admit he over-reacted.He's entitled to his opinion,no matter what.Gotta respect that.I might not agree with him(and I don't on this one),but maybe others might.The day that I become perfect,I'll.....probably become an IAABO rules interpreter and move to Ohio!
--just kidding,Mark,damnit,just kidding!:D

Re: Re: Holy Whuh!
 

After the initial posting I have not paid attention to this thread, until this morning when I saw that it was still generating posts. And to my suprise my name was used.

Lets get back on track. The NFHS and NCAA throw-in rule for the purposes of the original post are the same. When we have a designated spot throw-in, the designated spot is three feet wide, and as deep as the player making the throw-in can go, within certain limitations. Previous posters have done a bang-up job describing what foot work is legal and what is not legal.

BKBRef said

Seems to me that you have some real anger management issues. You can't have a simple discussion where people disagree with you or say something you don't like without blowing your top. You might want to speak with your local Methodist minister about this. I hear there are some excellent ones on the Duke campus. If not, I know a couple that graduated from there they would love to help you. Just let me know.

----------------------------------------------------

Bart,

I was ready and willing to take you up on your dare and admit that I'd overreacted. It's certainly clear to me looking at the words in one of BKBRef's early posts that they might not have merited such a strong response. I think if they'd come from anybody else on the board, they would not have drawn the one that they did. Then I read the above quote in one of his later posts and realized why I responded the way I did. He's a presumptuous, officious, arrogant, ***. He reads a handful of posts of mine and thinks he knows me well enough to not only a) diagnose me with a psychological problem, but also b)recommend particularized counseling?

He says I "can't have a simple discussion where people disagree with you and say something" I don't like without "blowing my top." First of all, BBR, none of this has generated any anger in me, up until your latest masterpiece. The problem is not me in terms of any inabilty to have a discussion. I thrive on debate. I like disagreement, because in many circumstances it can result in progress toward truth. But the kind of discourse that I'm accustomed to is nowhere to be found in this thread. In better forums, ideas can be exchanged, disagreements can be had, and individuals can hash out differences by analyzing them point by point, without resorting to twisting of words and deleting of context in order to try to win an argument.

Not a one of the respondents in this thread has actually taken the time to give any feedback to anything specific that I've written, at least not without eliminating all context. Those of you who have responded negatively have limited yourselves almost exclusively to calling me a whiner and an overreactor. Fine. You're free to throw words around without actually making a case to support them, but it's a joke on everybody if it works on anybody.

I've enjoyed the rules discussion here. I've learned a lot from it, and will continue to do so. My lesson learned in this instance is that if it can be found in a rule book or a case book, there are some here who will go to the ends of the earth to answer a point directly. But if it's not to be found there, some of the same people simply resort to name-calling and, "Well, since I'm an adult I know how to handle a situation such as this, where you obviously do not." I don't need to be insulted like that. Not from the likes of JR and BBR. That's junk.

And JR, you're definitely right in that I could have saved myself a lot of typing yesterday if I'd just called you an idiot, and stopped there. But then I'd have been guilty of one of the same crimes I've accused you of.

Cheers,
jb

Thanks for your reply. OK, I think everyone has had their say. Lets end it Here.

Ok, here's my only contribution to the quarrel. JB, do you really honestly believe that TH was trying to diagnose you with a psychological problem? Really? Do you really honestly believe that he is offering to put you in contact with a Methodist minister?

TH is not being arrogant, or presumptuous or whatever. He's yanking your chain. He's being sarcastic about the Methodists b/c you're at Duke. He's poking a little fun b/c of the lengthy replies you've posted in this thread. And you fell for it, providing exactly the kind of answer that you say you don't want to give. And proving whatever point TH may have wanted to make about being thin-skinned.

Just say "Hardy-har-har, you are sooooooooooo funny, BKBRef. You gunkie!" Or you could say that his mom wears combat boots.

It'll save you a lot of typing too.

Chuck

I love this guy!!
 

Hey, at least I didn't say "you're completely being a jerk!" :(

Like calling someone a jerk? :p

You're too EZ, jb. But you are da man!! :D

Hey, who's mama are you talking about, you !!#@$%%*(!(*#!! :)

Hey,I quit foraying yesterday!Can I come out of the corner now?:confused:

yes, if you apologize, urrr, no, just go play.