NBA rule question
 

Okay, listening to Mike and Mike again this morning, and the topic of the day seems to be the Pistons game last night and the clock malfunction at the end of the third quarter.

5.1 seconds left, ball is inbounded, and the clock freezes at 4.8 seconds. The Mikes were indicating that the refs "guestimated" (Stan Van Gundy's words) the play took 4.6 seconds, so the shot counted. My question is, doesn't the NBA allow replay in this instance to determine the proper timing of the play? If so, for those who saw the game, did the officials last night use replay?

Didn't watch the game, but according to news reports the officials are NOT allowed to use replay in situations like that. Instead they ARE allowed to GUESS...which is what they did(and apparently guessed wrongly).

Go figure......:)

Wow, a bad rule in the NBA?

replay is only allowed when the clock reads double zero.

Replay is used in the NBA for last second shots, to see if they got it off in time. I think they used it for that game a couple years ago where they weren't sure if the shot was a 3 and even with HD replay you couldn't tell. I think anyways, it is the NBE

That is not the ONLY time they are allowed to use replay but in this instance it was just a weird play and since the clock didn't go to TRIPLE zeros then there is no "trigger", of which there are only 6, that would allow them to use replay, and this is not one of them.

I guarantee you that this will be taken care of in the 2008-09 rule book.

Steve Javie created the NBA playoffs rulebook and he can edit it and apply it however he wants.

Steve Javie said the play 4.6 seconds, then it took 4.6 seconds and if you question Steve Javie you will take a dirt nap.

which reminds me:
Top 10 Steve Javie Facts:

When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night, he checks his closet for Steve Javie.

There is no 'ctrl' button on Steve Javie's computer. Steve Javie is always in control.

Apple pays Steve Javie 99 cents every time he listens to a song.

Steve Javie can sneeze with his eyes open.

Steve Javie can eat just one Lay's potato chip.

Steve Javie is suing Myspace for taking the name of what he calls everything around you.

Steve Javie destroyed the periodic table, because he only recognizes the element of surprise.

Steve Javie can kill two stones with one bird.

Steve Javie invented Kentucky Fried Chicken's famous secret recipe, with eleven herbs and spices. But nobody ever mentions the twelfth ingredient: Fear

Steve Javie can win a game of Connect Four in only three moves.

and a bonus:

Steve Javie counted to infinity - twice.

^^^^^^ that was just funny as heck Cajun Ref! ^^^^^^^^^

I dunno... sounds like a rip off from Chuck Norris.

can't slip anything past you can i? ;)

We won't tell the Marines what you've done to Norris' legacy.

Ok you guys who know me, know i couldn't keep quiet for long when someones running down my hero!!! haha. did you catch the article about steve in Referee magazine this month?

It is, at one time I had the document saved, its a word document a few pages long. Pretty funny, I'll see if I can find it when i get home tonight

Do you expect the refs to use, "One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi?" Because that is the only way they would know. There is no provision to use any other device and that is why the play stood.

Peace

They used something, because they ended up deciding the play took 4.6 seconds; and resumed play with .5 seconds remaining. Van Gundy is claiming he was told by Javie that they "guestimated" the play took 4.6 seconds. I'm not saying Van Gundy is telling the truth, but given that play resumed with .5 seconds, his explanation seems as plausible as any.

I know the NBA mechanic is to allow play to continue if a play is fully developed in this situation, and determine afterwards how much time should have come off. I wonder if one of the officials caught the stopped clock and started a mental count. But 4.6? Seems awfully precise for a guess.

I agree that they can try to figure out what time had moved, but they cannot use a clock or there is no device to tell them how much time should have gone off the clock. And the shot was attempted right at when the time would have expired according to the clock ESPN used.

Peace

I'm only saying they should have a provision allowing them to use replay and a stop watch. Forcing them to make a "best guess" without even the benefit of the replay is just stupid.

I agree, but that is something for the future. And you should know that most rules are not changed until something happens in a high profile moment.

Peace

I agree and that is why this will be changed in next year's rule book.

If I had to guesstimate I would say this is what happened in the conversation between Steve, Joe and Derrick. I would say they agreed that the shot was taken before the time would have expired and that they at least wanted to give Orlando a chance at a shot attempt so that would be the reason for the .5 that was put back on the clock.

True enough.

Got it. You guesstimated and they just guessed.

Nothing that happens anymore in the NBE surprises me.

Give it time. ;)

The official NBE response is that the officials guessed wrong. The play took 5.7 seconds and the shot shouldn't have counted.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playof...ory?id=3384577

There is nowayinhell that the officials should ever be faulted for this one.

I think that the problem was that the clock didn't count. ;)

Does the NBE have an official response on (non)traveling?

Well, as my sainted Grandfather useta say "Don't count your clocks until they're hatched."'

The old goof was a little loony.

Yes, M&M, Snaqs <i>et al</i>, , it is hereditary.

That's what they get for making the officials guess. Maybe they'll let them use replay next year.

http://www.referee.com/more/Samples/...508/javie.html

Agree completely with this. The refs had no recourse in the situation. The rules FORCE them to guess, and when you're dealing with tenths of a second, there's no way they can guess accurately.

The one thing they can be faulted for is not noticing sooner the the clock was stopped. One question I have is whether -- if they HAD noticed -- one of the officials could've started the clock with his PTS box on his waist.

The problem with this approach is that you're almost penalizing the offensive team. If the clock had been accurate, the player with the ball at the 0.4 mark would likely have shot the ball, instead of making the pass for the actual final shot.

So if you go to replay, you have to wipe off the final shot, obviously. But because of the bad information on the clock, you've sort of screwed them out of the chance to take a legitimate shot.

Maybe the NBA will go to do-overs, like when they replayed the end of the game where Shaq erroneously got fouled out.

Agreed, and this is the reason I don't like the idea of an official starting a silent/visible count when the end of the quarter is coming and the clock didn't start properly. Players go by what they see on the clock. I've done it, but I am increasingly uncomfortable with it.

And if you don't wipe it off you screw the defense. Somebody's gonna be upset.

There's still an undetermined(by rule) time lag to adjust. They'd still have to <b>guess</b> how much time to add. And as you said(and I agree 113%), you sureasheck can't accurately guess in tenths of a second.

They're trying to ascertain if one of the officials accidentally <b>stopped</b> the clock, maybe by heavy breathing through his whistle. Apparently they do have the technology to find out who actually stopped the clock. The timer says he didn't.

That's a very helpful reply, JR. Thanks.

Although I agree that it may be difficult to count in tenths of a second, people certainly have the ability to differentiate between x, x.5, and x+1 seconds.

Case in point: you know that I work in TV graphics. When I evaluate system performance for 24/7 live operation, and if the HD signal blips, I can often tell to within a few frames what frame number(s) were the one(s) that hiccuped. Ya, I may have some specialty training, but it's not that difficult at all. With 30 frames per second, you can do the seconds/frame math.

Recall those plays in state finals where watching in full speed first, (hopefully) your instinct is to waive off a basket. These cases had the release 0.5 seconds or less after the buzzer.

Clock stoppage
 

long time lurker. Couldnt resist replying

1. the rule book says the officials have final discretion to do what they think is right. So they are NOT limited in using replay if they feel it is ultimately required to do so. In this case, they must have felt their estimates precluded using replay

2. The last poster was right, with replay systems at 30fps, its easy to count frames to know time elapsed. The league just has to choose to do so.

3. the league this year decided to put red light on the scorers table so officials could see the light if the clock stopped. As an alternative to this system, the Mavs also used a buzzer that we made available for the officials to have with them. WHen the clock stops, the buzzer goes off. THe league felt this system wasnt time tested enough to use during the playoffs.

We have been raising issues about the Precision TimingSystem for years. Clock stoppage like the Orlando game happens all the time. All the time. Fortunately there is a great new tech person at the NBA and I think this will get resolved.

With the right technology, the officials should never have this problem. there will be backup to backup. Except of course in Atlanta

m

Unfortunately, this is him.

http://800lbgorilla.files.wordpress....lucky_nerd.jpg

Sorry Mark but i have read my NBA rule book from front to back and i see nowhere in the rule book that says what I have colored in red.

It does say that you have the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered in the rules, and in this case it is covered. there are 6 times when you may go to the instant replay and in this case it was not one of them although i think that will be changed next yr.