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-   -   OLD Stalling Rule (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/43280-old-stalling-rule.html)

br1975 Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:03pm
OLD Stalling Rule
 
Can anyone help me recall how, before the shot clock era, stalling was prevented? I seem to recall some sort of penetration requirement and did hashmarks on the sidelines play a part in this rule?

Adam Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:15pm
No shot clock now for most levels of basketball, and stalling is not prevented.

M&M Guy Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by br1975
I seem to recall some sort of penetration requirement
...fighting...urge...to post picture...

Anyway, at one time there was a "lack of action" warning that had to do with the hash marks on the sideline, about 28' off the endline. I don't remember all the details, but I believe if the offense was behind, the dribbler had to advance the ball past the 28' mark, even if the defense was back playing zone, and the defense had to come out to the dribbler if the defense was behind.

As Snaqs stated, that requirement was lifted, even in rule sets that do not use the shot clock.

Mark Padgett Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:34pm
Actually, I remember the exact rule and how it was applied, but I guess I'm not allowed to post it because, according to BktBallRef, all I post are lame jokes and off topic threads (see "Traveling" thread). Sorry - I really wanted to contribute this time. Oh well.:(

Dan_ref Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Guy
...fighting...urge...to post picture...
thanks, now i have to clean the coke off my monitor.

Adam Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:39pm
That's what you get for drinking Coke.

Jurassic Referee Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by br1975
Can anyone help me recall how, before the shot clock era, stalling was prevented? I seem to recall some sort of penetration requirement and did hashmarks on the sidelines play a part in this rule?
There's been several. I think that the one that you're referring to went like this:

- there was a 3-foot line on both sides of the court 28 feet up from the each endline.
- the area from the endline to the 28' mark was called the forecourt; from the 28' line to the center line was called the mid-court.
- If a team was behind in the score, they were responsible for the "action". If the teams were tied, the defense was the team responsible for the action.
- if the offense was responsible for action, they could only hold the ball for 10 seconds at a time in the mid-court area. At that time, the lead official was supposed to come out, point at the offense and holler "play ball". From then on, the offense had 5 seconds to move the ball into the forecourt. If they didn't, it was a team technical foul. Once they did move the ball into the forecourt, they could again move the ball back into the mid-court...but as soon as they moved back into the mid-court, a new 5-second count was again started. Iirc, the first warning(play ball) was good for the whole game.
- if the defense was reponsible for action, as soon as the offense held the ball in the mid-court area for 10 seconds, the lead would again go through the "play ball" routine. At this time though, the defense had to send defender(s) into the mid-court area within 5 seconds or the defense was charged with a team technical foul. If there was more than 1 offensive player in the mid-court area, the defense had to send a minimum of 2 players into that area. Defensive players had to be actively guarding too. That's where the 6-foot closely guarded rule came in. And again, if the ball swung into the forecourt and then back into the mid-court, the defense had to send defenders back into the mid-court area within 5 seconds again.

It was a very convoluted rule that really didn't work worth a damn. The FED got rid of it quickly.

That's how I remember it anyway. There were other versions before and after that.

Scrapper1 Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Sorry - I really wanted to contribute this time. Oh well.
And yet, you didn't. You just made another off-topic post. A better response, IMHO, would have been to post the exact rule and how it was administered and then told Bktballref where he could stick his off-topic commentary. Oh well.

Mark Padgett Fri Apr 04, 2008 02:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
That's what you get for drinking Coke.
You sure it was the kind you drink? JUST KIDDING, DAN. :D

fullor30 Fri Apr 04, 2008 03:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Actually, I remember the exact rule and how it was applied, but I guess I'm not allowed to post it because, according to BktBallRef, all I post are lame jokes and off topic threads (see "Traveling" thread). Sorry - I really wanted to contribute this time. Oh well.:(
the lame stuff you posts are jokes?

26 Year Gap Fri Apr 04, 2008 04:02pm
Thought for sure we'd see a Larry Craig reference....

Camron Rust Fri Apr 04, 2008 04:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Actually, I remember the exact rule and how it was applied, but I guess I'm not allowed to post it because, according to BktBallRef, all I post are lame jokes and off topic threads (see "Traveling" thread). Sorry - I really wanted to contribute this time. Oh well.:(
Ever hear the story of the boy who cried wolf? :rolleyes:

BillyMac Fri Apr 04, 2008 06:40pm
Action Is Lacking ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
There's been several. It was a very convoluted rule that really didn't work worth a damn. The FED got rid of it quickly. That's how I remember it anyway. There were other versions before and after that.
Jurassic Referee: Excellent explanation of the old Lack Of Action Rule. I believe that you nailed it. You indicate that the NFHS got rid of it quickly. When I began officiating back in the early 1980's, the the Lack Of Action rule was already in place, and only lasted a few years, as you indicated. I always thought that the rule had been in place for more than a few years. Do you remember when it started, or when it stopped? I'll take your word for it that there were other versions before the one you so aptly described, but I don't recall any other versions after the one you described was taken out of the rule book.

mick Fri Apr 04, 2008 08:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
There's been several. I think that the one that you're referring to went like this:

- there was a 3-foot line on both sides of the court 28 feet up from the each endline.
- the area from the endline to the 28' mark was called the forecourt; from the 28' line to the center line was called the mid-court.
- If a team was behind in the score, they were responsible for the "action". If the teams were tied, the defense was the team responsible for the action.
- if the offense was responsible for action, they could only hold the ball for 10 seconds at a time in the mid-court area. At that time, the lead official was supposed to come out, point at the offense and holler "play ball". From then on, the offense had 5 seconds to move the ball into the forecourt. If they didn't, it was a team technical foul. Once they did move the ball into the forecourt, they could again move the ball back into the mid-court...but as soon as they moved back into the mid-court, a new 5-second count was again started. Iirc, the first warning(play ball) was good for the whole game.
- if the defense was reponsible for action, as soon as the offense held the ball in the mid-court area for 10 seconds, the lead would again go through the "play ball" routine. At this time though, the defense had to send defender(s) into the mid-court area within 5 seconds or the defense was charged with a team technical foul. If there was more than 1 offensive player in the mid-court area, the defense had to send a minimum of 2 players into that area. Defensive players had to be actively guarding too. That's where the 6-foot closely guarded rule came in. And again, if the ball swung into the forecourt and then back into the mid-court, the defense had to send defenders back into the mid-court area within 5 seconds again.

It was a very convoluted rule that really didn't work worth a damn. The FED got rid of it quickly.

That's how I remember it anyway. There were other versions before and after that.
JR,
I seem to remember a very short period in the 1st-half of the Sinsational 60's, where we had to penetrate the free throw-line extended from time to time, but could then bring the ball out again.
Does that sound like sumpthin ?

Jurassic Referee Fri Apr 04, 2008 08:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
JR,
I seem to remember a very short period in the 1st-half of the Sinsational 60's, where we had to penetrate the free throw-line extended from time to time, but could then bring the ball out again.
Does that sound like sumpthin ?
Iirc, they did have a rule like that for a year or so. I <b>think</b> that the initial period then before the warning was a whopping 30 seconds, and then you had 10 seconds to get it over that FT line extended. You could then go back out, but the 10 seconds started again. I also <b>think</b> that the warning only lasted either a quarter or a half too. Iirc also, technical fouls were only 1 FT too.

Sound familiar?

mick Fri Apr 04, 2008 08:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Iirc, they did have a rule like that for a year or so. I think that the initial period then before the warning was a whopping 30 seconds, and then you had 10 seconds to get it over that FT line extended. You could then go back out, but the 10 seconds started again. I also think that the warning only lasted either a quarter or a half too. Iirc also, technical fouls were only 1 FT too.

Sound familiar?
It does. But you know, as a high school player you rarely (and I never) had a chance or inclination to ask to read any rule.

ref2coach Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
It does. But you know, as a high school player you rarely (and I never) had a chance or inclination to ask to read any rule.
True, I played 73 -> 77, I remember being required to advance past the hash marks. All I remember is when the referee yelled "play" we had to get past the hash mark. I do remember getting multiple verbal "reminders" during the game.

BillyMac Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:20am
Pick A Prize From The Top Shelf ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I also think that the warning only lasted either a quarter or a half too. Also, technical fouls were only 1 FT too. Sound familiar?
Great memory. I vaguely remember that each team was allowed a certain number of warnings per period, half, game, something like that, maybe even involving lead changes. Also, didn't officials have to keep track of the difference between a defensive lack of action, and an offensive lack of action, each one may, or may not, have required it's own warning.

Those were the good old days:

http://re3.yt-thm-a04.yimg.com/image/25/f11/138729509

BillyMac Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:26am
Lack Of Action ???
 
I finally got around to checking my NFHS Basketball Handbook. I found these under Chronology Of Basketball Rules:

1965: Lack of action outlined in "Comments on the rules".

1982: Warning for lack of action reduced from ten to five seconds; Developed basic principles on lack of action in "Comments on the Rules".

I can't find when the lack of action rule was deleted. The oldest NFHS Rule Book that I have is from 1996-97, which does not contain a lack of action rule, so the lack of action rule was probably deleted sometime between 1982 and 1996-97. I'm sure that there are some veteran officials on the Forum who can look through their old Rule Books from 1982 through 1996-97 to find out when the lack of action rule was deleted.

http://www.nfhs.com/gfx/9/thumb/BKHB08.jpg

Stat-Man Sun Apr 06, 2008 06:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Jurassic Referee: Excellent explanation of the old Lack Of Action Rule. I believe that you nailed it. You indicate that the NFHS got rid of it quickly. When I began officiating back in the early 1980's, the the Lack Of Action rule was already in place, and only lasted a few years, as you indicated. I always thought that the rule had been in place for more than a few years. Do you remember when it started, or when it stopped? I'll take your word for it that there were other versions before the one you so aptly described, but I don't recall any other versions after the one you described was taken out of the rule book.
I graduated high school in 1991 and the rule was still in place. It was repealed between 1991 and 1994 because our college hosted the AAU state final 4 in 1994 and a team killed off about 5 straight minutes in the 3rd quarter with stalling and I was wondering why the officials weren't enforcing the lack of action rule. :confused:

BillyMac Sun Apr 06, 2008 07:06pm
Thanks ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stat-Man
I graduated high school in 1991 and the rule was still in place. It was repealed between 1991 and 1994 because our college hosted the AAU state final 4 in 1994 and a team killed off about 5 straight minutes in the 3rd quarter with stalling and I was wondering why the officials weren't enforcing the lack of action rule. :confused:
So the lack of action rule was probably deleted between 1991-92 and 1996-97.

I'm sure that there are some veteran officials on the Forum who can look through their old Rule Books from 1991-92 through 1996-97 to find out when the lack of action rule was deleted. It's only six years, six books. Help me out.

BillyMac Sun Apr 06, 2008 07:14pm
Thanks Stat-Man
 
After Stat-Man's recent post, I went back to my NFHS Basketball Handbook and looked again. I didn't realize that the rule was deleted such a short time ago, in BillyMac years, which is why I missed it this morning.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dcr0496l.jpg

1991: Deleted lack of action definition and restrictions.

If any Forum member has a Rule Book from that era (1991-92), look under rule revisions, and maybe you can share with us the reason for the change

Thanks Stat-Man. Definitely an appropriate Forum name if there ever was one.

From Jurassic Referee: "The FED got rid of it quickly."
From Billymac: "When I began officiating back in the early 1980's, the the Lack Of Action rule was already in place, and only lasted a few years"
Boy, were we wrong. Lack Of Action 1982-1991 Rest In Peace, or Lack Of Action 1965-1991 Rest In Peace. Two gravestones. One funeral. Maybe they were related.

Adam Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stat-Man
I graduated high school in 1991 and the rule was still in place.
Funny. I graduated in 1992, and I don't recall that rule ever being enforced in any of my games. I don't recall that it necessarily needed to be, but I just don't remember hearing anything but a vague mention of the rule when I was in Jr. High.

Jurassic Referee Mon Apr 07, 2008 05:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Funny. I graduated in 1992, and I don't recall that rule ever being enforced in any of my games. I don't recall that it necessarily needed to be, but I just don't remember hearing anything but a vague mention of the rule when I was in Jr. High.
The "lack of action" rule that I laid out was long-gone by 1992....by a minimum of at <b>least</b> 10 years. When they went to 5 seconds, that was the start of the 5-second closely guarded rule, which got modified to what it used today. Today's closely-guarded rule IS a lack-of-action rule, with the onus put on the defense to force the action...if they want to.

Sureashell not worth arguing over.

BillyMac Mon Apr 07, 2008 06:15am
Sounds Right ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
The "lack of action" rule that I laid out was long-gone by 1992....by a minimum of at <b>least</b> 10 years. When they went to 5 seconds, that was the start of the 5-second closely guarded rule, which got modified to what it used today. Today's closely-guarded rule IS a lack-of-action rule, with the onus put on the defense to force the action...if they want to.
I started in the early 1980's and I remember the "whole nine yards" lack of action rule lasting only a few years, which makes Jurassic Referee's estimate of a minimum of ten years before 1992 right on.

Could somebody find an old rule book and find out when, and possibly why, the "whole nine yards" lack of action rule was deleted, not just revised.

http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m2/2266714874


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