Erroneous info

[deleted]

Here's the sitch:

B1 commits a common foul on A1 which is the teams 7th, partner (rookie official) administers the FTs.
A5 rebounds the missed 1st shot & scores a lay-up, nobody else moves. Team B is granted a timeout immediately.
My partner says to me I accidently told them 2 shots.
I remember reading a similar situation in the case book 8.6.1 to be exact. The only difference is my sitch involves a scored basket. I tell him no worries, we can correct it.

What we did was cancel the basket & gave the ball to Team B for a spot throw-in. After re-reading the case book this morning, I noticed that I told the young official wrong because we should've went to the AP arrow.

Is wiping off the basket by A5 correct?

I totally blame myself for:
1. not being cognizant that he said 2 when it was 1 & 1... I could've eliminated the error & my misapplication of the rule would've never occured had I been on my Ps & Qs 😠

2. not knowing the rules (partially proficient doesn't count) 😠

Let me know if everything else we did was correct prior to our failure of going to the AP arrow. I'd like to shoot my partner an email & clear things up for his future reference. Thanks!

Nevadaref

You failed to quickly blow the whistle and make the ball dead BEFORE the rebounder scored a basket. (Note the language of the case book play--"whistled dead immediately".) Since the basket was scored with a live ball, you cannot cancel it. You have no rules support to do so. You tried to do the right thing once you realized that you and your partner had made a mistake in the FT administration, but unfortunately, you committed another mistake in trying to fix the first one.

You needed to accept that a mistake occurred and move on.

cmathews

Nevada, I agree the mistakes compounded each other to a point. But in the end aside from the CE they got it right. I agree that they can't cancel the score, since the POI is after the score, B should get the ball, but not with a spot throw in.

[deleted]

Ok, since I didn't know that he provided erroneous info until after the basket was made, nothing can done to fix it except dont f&%# it up to begin with. Is that correct?

Nevadaref

Ch1town wrote
Ok, since I didn't know that he provided erroneous info until after the basket was made, nothing can done to fix it except dont f&%# it up to begin with. Is that correct?

You need to watch your partner signal prior to the FT. You already admitted that you goofed by not doing so. Unfortunate, but not something that you should be crucified over.

I guess that you could have realized that something was wrong when only one player went after the rebound and sounded the whistle at that time. The action could have clued you in that your partner did something incorrect. Just a thought.

I'm confused how you came up with giving the ball to Team B and taking the basket away from Team A, since it was A5 who got the rebound. 😕 You just gave Team B a free rebound without making them pay for it in any way, such as with the AP arrow.

I could understand an official saying that the ball became dead prior to the goal due to the mistake and thus no basket, but still Team A retains possession when the game resumes since that team did get the rebound. It wouldn't be truly correct, but it would be a reasonable ruling for an official who didin't know the case play with great precision.

[deleted]

Nevadaref wrote
I guess that you could have realized that something was wrong when only one player went after the rebound and sounded the whistle at that time. The action could have clued you in that your partner did something incorrect. Just a thought.

I know huh 🙁 Sound the whistle, find out what my partner said, go to AP

I'm confused how you came up with giving the ball to Team B and taking the basket away from Team A, since it was A5 who got the rebound. 😕 You just gave Team B a free rebound without making them pay for it in any way, such as with the AP arrow.

Right! It was just a wake-up call. Apparently I need to be in the rule book during the off-season as well!

I could understand an official saying that the ball became dead prior to the goal due to the mistake and thus no basket, but still Team A retains possession when the game resumes since that team did get the rebound. It wouldn't be truly correct, but it would be a reasonable ruling for an official who didin't know the case play with great precision.

I gotcha... I guess it's better to learn that lesson now than in a more critical environment later.
Thanks!!!

Adam

Ch1town wrote
I gotcha... I guess it's better to learn that lesson now than in a more critical environment later.
Thanks!!!

That's what summer ball is for, right?

Adam

Nevadaref wrote
I could understand an official saying that the ball became dead prior to the goal due to the mistake and thus no basket, but still Team A retains possession when the game resumes since that team did get the rebound. It wouldn't be truly correct, but it would be a reasonable ruling for an official who didin't know the case play with great precision.

I don't understand this one, Nevada. How can this be the right move? Particularly, if you're going to negate the shot (the "right" thing to do, even though it's not the "correct" thing), how do you give the ball to A without going to the arrow? It doesn't make sense.

[deleted]

Snaqwells wrote
That's what summer ball is for, right?

I guess so. But I just hate making simple mistakes. Since I learned from it & if I don't make the same mistake again... it's not such a bad thing.

I learned 3 things: How to properly handle that situation. How to eliminate or slim down the chances of it occuring. And admitting unnoticed errors to partners increases your credibility.

Nevadaref

Snaqwells wrote
I don't understand this one, Nevada. How can this be the right move? Particularly, if you're going to negate the shot (the "right" thing to do, even though it's not the "correct" thing), how do you give the ball to A without going to the arrow? It doesn't make sense.

Adam,
All that I was saying there is that if an official isn't aware of the precise way to handle the situation as detailed in the case book, I could certainly see an official ruling the ball dead just after the rebound, thus negating the goal, and then going to the POI to resume the game. That would give the ball to Team A as they had team control at the time. Not saying that it is the correct NFHS ruling, but I do think that it makes some sense.

Nevadaref

Ch1town wrote
I guess so. But I just hate making simple mistakes. Since I learned from it & if I don't make the same mistake again... it's not such a bad thing.

I learned 3 things: How to properly handle that situation. How to eliminate or slim down the chances of it occuring. And admitting unnoticed errors to partners increases your credibility.

Excellent. I hope that you are a better official today than you were yesterday. That is something for which all of us should be constantly striving.

Adam

Nevadaref wrote
Adam,
All that I was saying there is that if an official isn't aware of the precise way to handle the situation as detailed in the case book, I could certainly see an official ruling the ball dead just after the rebound, thus negating the goal, and then going to the POI to resume the game. That would give the ball to Team A as they had team control at the time. Not saying that it is the correct NFHS ruling, but I do think that it makes some sense.

I get it. You see this as one (not necessarily the only) way to understandably screw this up. 🙂

Scrapper1

Snaqwells wrote
That's what summer ball is for, right?

Summer ball?!?!? It's supposed to snow here tomorrow. 😠

Adam

Scrapper1 wrote
Summer ball?!?!? It's supposed to snow here tomorrow. :mad:

Well, I work fairly near Ch1town, and it was snowing as I arrived at work this morning. Snow's gone now, though.

w_sohl

Nevadaref wrote
You failed to quickly blow the whistle and make the ball dead BEFORE the rebounder scored a basket. (Note the language of the case book play--"whistled dead immediately".) Since the basket was scored with a live ball, you cannot cancel it. You have no rules support to do so. You tried to do the right thing once you realized that you and your partner had made a mistake in the FT administration, but unfortunately, you committed another mistake in trying to fix the first one.

You needed to accept that a mistake occurred and move on.

I said just this about this sitch about 1 month ago and someone told me I was wrong to count the basket. That it was correctable and the basket is to be removed. I wish I could find that thread....

just another ref

Why can't the guy who gave the bad info wave the basket off and say the ball was dead by rule 6-7-2-a?

Indianaref

just another ref wrote
Why can't the guy who gave the bad info wave the basket off and say the ball was dead by rule 6-7-2-a?

As Nevada said, the official(s) should have blown their whistle immediately. Rule 6-7-2a is not applicable. This was a 1 and 1. Free throw was not to be followed by another free throw (missed first free throw) or followed by a throw-in.
You can only wipe off the basket as in R 2-10-4 . . . If the error is a free throw by the wrong player or at the wrong basket, or the awarding of an unmerited free throw, the free throw and the activity during it, other than unsporting, flagrant, intentional or technical fouls, shall be canceled... in the appropriate time frame.
In Ch1 case the correct shooter was at the line.

just another ref

Indianaref wrote
As Nevada said, the official(s) should have blown their whistle immediately. Rule 6-7-2a is not applicable. This was a 1 and 1. Free throw was not to be followed by another free throw (missed first free throw) or followed by a throw-in.

If the administering official announces 2 shots, then, even if it's wrong, the free throw is to be followed by another free throw. Therefore, when it is apparent that the first free throw is no good, the ball is dead.

Nevadaref

just another ref wrote
If the administering official announces 2 shots, then, even if it's wrong, the free throw is to be followed by another free throw. Therefore, when it is apparent that the first free throw is no good, the ball is dead.

Sorry, but that is simply not true.

If a player is fouled while attempting an unsuccessful lay-up, do think that he is entitled to three FTs if the administering official erroneously announces, "Three shots"?

The number of FTs does not change based upon what an official says, they are properly determined by game action.

Adam

The correctable error here would be awarding the 2nd shot. Yes, bad info can cause problems, and the whistle should have blown. But there's no correctable error here to allow you to discount the shot.
And even if there was a "correctable error," you still can't discount any activity that occurred prior to discovery.