Here's an idea
 

Guys - what do you think of this idea? We've all had coaches who want to call the game. They yell things like "traveling", "carry", "foul", etc. How about we all agree to do the following. Whenever they yell out a call, we get to yell out a coaching instruction at their team. For instance, they yell "travel", we yell at their guard, "switch". Or, next time they're on offense, we yell at their center "post up", etc. You get the idea.

When they ask us what the heck we're doing, we tell them that every time they try to call the game, we're going to coach the game.

I think it's worth a try.

WARNING: if Larry Craig is coaching, just ignore him when he yells "that's a reach" or "over the back". :p

Certainly has some merit. Although, I personally could never get away with it....my sarcasm, humor, and expertise just aren't that good.

What about the fans (parents) who are already trying to do both?

I have one MS parent who is so loud he is a distraction to the players.....constantly yells at his son and the team. I asked the AD about it and he said he'd handle it......next time I was there, it was same ole same ole. Of course, on occasion he tries to help us too......

Could take your suggestion up a notch and let him ref and coach it at the same time! And the coach and my fellow officials could yell "encouragement" to him!

What is it with you & Larry Craig?:cool:

Seinfeld Lives ...
 

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I proposed to my refs in my rec league that we donate one day's game checks to the IHSAA for purchase of rule books that we could stuff in our pockets. Then one one of those silly azh fans yelled something like "OVER THE BACK" we could fling a rule book at them on our next trip to the other end of the court! :D

Problem with that is...I'm not sure 6 refs x 5 games each X $25 a game would cover enough books! :o

Plus, you'd get called lard@$$ till you emptied your pockets.

I've been saying for years that our official's jerseys should have "There's no such foul as a reach" printed on the front and "There's no such foul as over-the-back" printed on the back.

Actually, I've thought of carrying cards in my pocket that say that and just handing them to coaches during games when appropriate.

Big deal - in a typical game, that would take about 30 seconds. :D

I'd be willing to donate more than one game fee, if we could get the rule book in hard back. :D

Maybe we can all pool our money together and send lpbreeze to a basketball camp in Southern California. :D

That's hitting below the belt, try to keep the gloves up. :D

Seeing this forum has gone to the "over the back" And "reach in" I just need some clarification. I am in my second year of officiating now and enjoying every minute of it. I had coached youth basketball for the last 20 years and was looking for a way to stay around the game. My concern is officials constantly on this forum make a joke of coaches and fans who use the above terms. In my coaching I would always use these terms because people are trying to rebound over the back of the person boxing them out making illegal contact. They also do reach in trying to steal the ball which is no foul unless illegal contact is made. Every fan in america also hollers out the same verbage in those situations. As an official now I understand these are called a push or hold etc. I think most officials understand what the coach is implying in these situations don't they? I was coaching in the Nike showcase in Chicago last year and I holler over the back when someone came from behind to gather a rebound in my opinion gaining an unfair advantage. The referee says to me their is no over the back foul with no further explanation. In my mind hearing this for the first time in 20 years of coaching think he of course is an idiot. I guess he needed to explain to an idiot coach it is a push. I guess I am just trying to give some input from the other side to put this in perspective. I guess even some officials give the sign indicating over the back to further confuse the average fan or coach. Just thought I would throw this out there to hopefully not take a beating but just to maybe give a different angle. Thanks

Forgive them Father for they know not what they do...

Usually, the use of these terms, "reach" and "over the back" come with common misconceptions. The people that use these terms are less likely to have an understanding of the rules and how they are interpreted; that's why it has become a pet peeve of many officials. I can't comment about the official at the Nike camp, as I was not there, but I know there is a tendancy among officials to dismiss comments that could be construed as showing a lack of understanding of the rules. But I would think if you would've said something along the lines of, "My player was pushed/displaced/contacted illegally", you might've gotten a better answer or reaction from that official, as you are then speaking in rule terms, not "fan-speak".

I work with two officials who will usually make an "over the back" and "reaching in" call a couple of times a game. I have cringed a few times working with them. I spoke with them both about the calls, their excuse: I used to be a coach!

M&M are you saying that even though you as an official knows exactly what the coach is asking but did not use the correct terminology you would not give him his due. If this is the case maybe we need to do a better job in our rules interpretation meetings for coaches that unless you use the correct terminology we will ignore you. Point of emphasis for 08-09 to coaches!

I believe the good coaches already know that :rolleyes:

No, I would not say this.

You gave the example of the official at the camp - I don't know all the details about this interaction, but perhaps all the official heard from you was, "That's over the back!", and the only answer he was able to give you as he was running by was, "There's no such thing as over the back in the rules." He would be correct, and perhaps that was his way of telling you there was no illegal contact on that play. But remember, you didn't ask about illegal contact, you asked about something that is not in the rules, and the associated misconceptions that go along with that phrase.

"Giving the coach his due" is very dependent on the specific situation. If I know a coach has a working knowledge of the rules, and is simply using the phrase, I will give them the proper explanation of the call or no-call. If I've never seen the coach before, it may depend on the level of the game as to how I react to the comment. A grade-school level coach may get the "no such call" answer, because there is a greater chance they do not know the rules, and I will not have time in that particular game to explain the rules to them.

So, do I give the coach his due? It depends. :)

Thanks M&M that helps.

Over the Back signal
 

How about the TV announcers?
 

They are constantly using these terms. During this week's games I bet if you kept track they would say this over 30 times. Also if you are in the stands you hear it all game long.

Nfhs ???
 

I can't find this signal in my NFHS manual. Is it an NCAA signal?

Aren't the stripes on his jersey kind of wide, and isn't the lanyard kind of long?

Another Myth Bites The Dust ...
 

Reaching in is not a foul. There must be contact to have a foul. The mere act of reaching in, by itself, is nothing. If contact does occur, it’s either a holding foul or an illegal use of hands foul. When a player, in order to stop the clock, does not make a legitimate play for the ball, holds, pushes or grabs away from the ball, or uses undue roughness, the foul is an intentional foul.

Over the back is not a foul. The term is nowhere to be found in any rulebook. There must be contact to have a foul. A taller player may often be able to get a rebound over a shorter player, even if the shorter player has good rebounding position. If the shorter player is displaced, then a pushing foul must be called. A rebounding player, with an inside position, while boxing out, is not allowed to push back or displace an opponent, which is a pushing foul.

how do u post threads?

With the giant button that says, "New Thread" on the main page.

Here's the mechanic for a "reach" as demonstrated by Larry Craig. The signal is also valid for "over the back" and anything "flagrant".

http://theblacksentinel.files.wordpr...craigstall.jpg

BillyMac what you stated is what every good official knows. The point of the thread is that everyone makes a joke of people using the terms over the back and reach. As stated announcers, coaches, fans all use these terms. We as officials understand what they want called but some want to make these people seem ignorant because they did not say push or hold. We are talking about terminology difference only. Some officials even suggested they would ignore such comments rather than educate these coaches about the correct words. We all know the coach means there is illegal contact from behind. Was just wondering how everyone dealt with it and M&M guy gave some good thoughts. Thanks

I'm quite sure we ALL don't know this. I'm quite sure that some coaches (and, to be fair, some officials) really believe (or act as if they believe) that all "over the back" is a foul and all "reach" is a foul, whether or not there is illegal contact / displacement / advantage.

No, the point of the thread is to come up with quick ways to let coaches know that we, not they, call the game. That's our job. Their job is to coach, not officiate. It doesn't matter what terminology they use.

Many is the time I have said to a coach after he yelled "travel" or something similar, "We'll call the game coach". This is usually accompanied by the stop sign.

And if we call "over the back" and "reach" instead of "push" or "hold" the next time a player grabs a rebound from behind without causing illegal contact, or reaches in and steal the ball from an opponent without making illegal contact, some coaches will then say we're not being consistent.

Another example is the "moving pick". No illegal contact, no foul.

Years ago, David Adelman (Rick's son) played in our local rec league. During one game, he ran from the division line to the end line (he did not have the ball) and the other team just "scattered" out of his way, but there was no contact involved. The opposing coach yelled, "He can't just barrel his way through there like that!" I turned to him and said, "If there's no contact, he can." The coach told me the rule should be changed.

Yeah? To what? ;)

BTW - that year Rick, while coach of the Blazers, was at our "tryout" day. All kids get to play and there's no cuts, so it's just a display of skills so coaches can take notes before choosing their teams. I was standing next to Rick and we were watching the players. I said to him, "Ya' know what's really scary about this, Rick?" He said, "No, what?" I replied, "All 1200 of them are unrestricted free agents!" He laughed and said, "Man, that is scary!"

Another Myth Bites The Dust ...
 

A moving screen is not in and of itself a foul, contact must occur for a foul to be called. If a blind screen is set on a stationary defender, the defender must be given one normal step to change direction and attempt to avoid contact. If a screen is set on a moving defender, the defender gets a minimum of one step and a maximum of two steps, depending on the speed and distance of the defender.