Push, held ball or nothing.
 

Last night in my 5th/6th grade rec league semi-final game had a play that I wanted to put forth for comment. It's one you had to have seen and I'll interject conversation that took place after the game...

With about :20 left in the game...Team A is up by 5....Player A1 throws an arching inbound pass to A2 who is running right up the sideline by the benches and table. The pass is long and B2 intercepts it as he is making like a DB in the full court press...as he controls it, he and A2 are now facing each other and A2 trying to make a play on it, reaches out and gets both hands on the ball ...in an effort to avoid contact and almost as if he was trying to stop himself, his momentum causes him to push with his hands only on the ball (there was no body contact)...these caused B2 to pivot around and he lost his balance and travelled (pivot foot lifeted and returned to the floor).

Whatcha got? As I see it the "contact" did put B2 at a disadvantage but with both players having their hands on the ball, could this have been a held ball? (I know, I know, you had to see it)

Now....

I was set up at about 1/2 court right on the line and was L on this inbounds...as the play appraoched me I began to backpedal toward the other end of the court to stay ahead of the play....the play happened in a direct line of sight infront of me but I was straightlined and B2 had is back to me so I was not in position to see A2's hands or the action that occured and what I saw from my POV was the travel and that's what I called and when asked by coach what I gave him.

A Coach was obviously upset becaues from his POV he saw the "push". B ended up winning the game by 2...A hit a 3 at the buzzer to cut the 5 point lead down...

After the game I asked my fellow board members who were at the table working book/clock if I missed something on that play...they confirmed what I stated that in fact A2 had his hands on the ball but no body contact occured and it was more like he was trying to stop himself....

So my question is/was back to push or held ball situation....typically when I think of a push, I do think arms but I also have in my mind pushing around the chest, side or in the back to gain position....never really thought about it in the context of this play....Perhaps in this, it's too quick of a whistle for held ball but I was just wondering if pushing the ball is still a push and should be whistled as such. Again, no body contact but there was displacement...

I would agree with your travel call.

Probably not a held ball, as the events seemed to happen too quickly.

From what you described, sounds like no foul either. It's not a personal foul, as there was no body contact. No contact = no foul. And the only non-contact personal foul you can have is a flagrant personal foul, like if a kid swung a punch at another player and missed (during a live ball).

It's not one of those situations that looks pretty to coaches/fans, but it's the right call to make.

When did IND officials start using bicycles on the the court?

All contact is not a foul but there must be contact to be a foul...

Well, my first two steps anyway!

You know though...my tendonitis in the knees might actually like a bicycle to get up and down the court! :D After Saturday's two league champinship games...I'm taking some time off from the game of hoops....Coaching/reffing has worn me out....Only problem is, my girls are playing softball and I'm coaching both teams! Did I mention I LOVE youth sports! :p

No contact, no foul...either a travel or held ball.

But why would backpedal away from the play?:eek: You were in perfect position to referee that play and instead you moved away from the play and you caused yourself to be straight-lined. It's more important to "referee" a play than "stay ahead" of the play.

This would be a flagrant technical foul.

I agree with either a travel call or a held ball. If you thought the player was using the ball to purposefully push his opponent, you could call a technical foul. I'd be leary of going there though, and would want to be sure it was purposeful.

Due to the "undue force" clause, it might be worth going with the held ball here, even if it seems a bit quick.

Initially I thought the offense was going to catch the outlet pass and continue down court and the pass went long over the offensive players reach so I was moving as such.....then the D stepped up like a football DB and intercepted the long pass ...the D was set up for FCP to set up the trap once the ball came on the court....bad pass...and I do agree I put myself in the straight line...it happens sometimes...

My interp of undue force includes cases where players are standing upright and then are forced to fall to the ground. It's not an automatic held ball, but the possibility is there.

I definitely do not have a foul.

Opponent has both hands so firmly on the ball that the offensive player can't do anything with it? Held ball.

If the same play happened on an airborne shooter, what would you call?

Why backpedal at all? I was told never to. A lot of bad things can happen.

I agree -- held ball.

I had been taught not to, and I don't because I don't think I can get a look at any play if I'm back-pedaling. But there are those who do it.

But I think the important thing about this play is not the back-pedaling nor the travelling call. It's the habit I observe a lot by new leads in pressing situations where they move away from the play as the ball is coming directly at them. Bailing out of a perfect angle to referee that play for the sole purpose of staying ahead of the players.

It's funny, b/c the person who instilled in me the philosophy of staying on the play as the new lead in pressing situations is someone who regularly backpedals.

Jurassic...if the defender's action cause the shooter not to release the ball I have held ball...If the defender places his hands on the ball in the act of shooting and then lets go, I either have a clean play (provided no body or contact with arms) or a travel cause the shooter comes back down to the floor with ball in hand ;)

I'm questioning because Player A is moving one way, Player B the other and I don't know if enough time had lapsed for a judgement to be made if the O player could not do anything with the ball...As fast as the ball came in and then the travel took place...that's where my question lies...

Plus, I could not even see the ball because I was behind the play...

It was one that if I was where the guys at the table were...I'd be able to see the action and better determine. As stated, my original question about pushing the ball with no contact to the player....Push or no? A few have said it seems as if my travel call was correct...

And for you cycling enthusiasts hammering me on the backpedal...I don't do that all the time...sometimes, yes, but generally I'm running looking back over my shoulder...perhaps I should have stated I was moving away from the play in anticipation of it advancing to the FC. :D

You absolutely can't call this a push. It's either a held ball or a travel.
There's no time requirement for a held ball.

Interesting situation. First of all, I agree with the "no foul" crowd.

As for the held ball, we've got two separate NFHS rules:

Art. 1... Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness.

and

Art. 2... An opponent places his/her hand(s) on the ball and prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try.

There was a suggestion that we consider this situation as it relates to article 2. But I don't think that's valid. In this sitch the player was not airborne.

So we're left with article 1. We usually think of this in terms of two more or less stationary opponents who are gripping the ball and attempting to pull it in opposite directions. But could it apply to opponents who, because of momentum, are pushing from opposite sides of the ball? Certainly their hands are firmly on the ball, and getting firmer. And there seemed to be a component of undue roughness.

But there is an element of the sitch that's like Article 2, in that you've got two players essentially pushing against the ball from opposite directions.

And as the Snaqmaster pointed out, there is no time requirement.

So I think I've got a held ball here.