NFHS and Replay - Its Time
 

I submit after the SC, Oklahoma and now Ohio finishes and with video everywhere, its time the Fed gives us the ability to leave no speculation. At least for tournament games.

Ohio D1 girls Story
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs...20367/-1/CINCI

While I agree that some video could be allowed, the devil is in the details, as they say. What kind of video equipment is allowed to be used? A camera from the crowd? Or only a courtside monitor from a TV feed?

When can it be used? Last second shot only? Or also to identify a free throw shooter? To identify participants in a fight? To check if the clock started or stopped properly?

They would have to be very specific and very careful about how it's implemented, I think. But like I said, I agree that we should have access to it if it's available.

Ms. Reynolds,

God will give you a mulligan on that one. :p

Some analysis:

Using my highly scientific approach of repeated stopwatch results, the time difference in slow-motion between red light on and release of the ball is 0.5s.

The same scientific approach tells me that the slow-motion ratio is 0.7s real-time to 2.7s slow-motion. This ratio yields a real-time time difference between release and red light of less than 1/7th of a second.

Amazing... but clearly the shot was not released in time. Oh well.

I will say that I read the whole article before I watched the video. But to me, at full speed it looked like the shot didn't get off. Tough call either way.

Other than the state tournament, there aren't too many high school games that get televised and would have video replay available. So even once they worked out the details, it would still be a moot point for 99% of the games anyway.

Except there will still be speculation when it's too close to call even by replay - ie, the South Carolina 4A Boys Championship.

To me, there's no doubt that a game or two could be impacted every year. The question is whether it's worth the time, effort, and money to make replay available. This is still high school sports, and every other decision in the game is made by humans. And the questions to be asked - do we allow officials to fix timing errors? What if in the example above the replay does in fact show the shot isn't off, but it also shows the clock started a fraction of a second early but that isn't reviewable?

We'll never remove speculation and missed calls from the game. I certainly wouldn't fight it as long as it's well thought out, but if I have to I'd vote for leaving it be.

My question is this: "why did the officials throw the ball away with a 1 point lead? Wouldn't preventative officiating have called a foul on the steal?"

Nope. Fouls are "game interrupters".:rolleyes:

I understand your point, but the fact is, we aren't the ones who have to worry about the details. It's not like you are going to have to add a tripod to your equipment bag.

I am all for any decision that gives me more tools to make accurate decisions in the games I work.

This is the same type of arguement that is being discussed in Major League Baseball. Use it only on home runs? Foul balls? Close plays on the bases? A catch or no catch? How many times a game can you use it?

Or do you make it more like football - only so many uses per game and your out? With penalties (lost TO) for misuse or a not overturned play? Should refs "go to the table for every close call with 2 min to go in the game.....?"

Certainly an interesting discussion.....but, at the HS level? Depending on how implemented games (and our long days) could be extended.....

It doesn't necessarily have to be televised. They might allow the use of a team-owned camcorder that has been used for the entire game from a single location, for example. I'm not saying that's a great idea, just that the NFHS could make its own definition of what a usable replay device would be. That's why I said the devil is in the details.

And the replay would have to have the clock visible somehow - either as an inset or show the entire court with the clock visible...And the replay would have to have sound in order to hear the horn (at least for NFHS)...And the replay would have to be somewhere we could get at it easily - at the table, not up in the stands or anything...And it would have to be the same throughout a state...And - there's just way too many "and"'s to add here. I just don't see it happening for HS games.

this is a very slippery slope for HS games, though in some of your larger districts in Texas, you might not have a problem getting them to shell money out to do it right....

I agree.

AND it could not be mandatory because providing it will cost money.

I totally disagree with replay in any sport. You are never going to be able to take away the human element of sport. Mistakes happen. In my opinion, all replay does is slow the game down to a painfully slow pace, and cause for more opportunities to question officials. The last second shot is more visible, but is that play any more important than a possible misssed rebounding foul 3 minutes earlier that would have put a team in the bonus? Are we going to go back and review that play?

Yes.

I submit only for games at the state level (basically final 4s and championships).

30 extra min pre-game for the refs for training on the system.

2 monitors - 1 for training in the locker room, 1 at the table. Make this part of the TV contract. 2 head sets - 1 for training, 1 at the table.

Only review baskets at the end of quarters and baskets at the end of the 4th or OT that decide the game. 2s vs 3s can be looked at if they fall into this criteria. Thats it.

Money? Are you kidding!!

For state games, At $7 - 10 a head x thousands of fans x games, the money is there. Also, TV affiliate pays each state for the rights to broadcast the games. Money is not the problem and its insulting to suggest that they cant pull this off for one weekend because of money.

This is an easy thing for the TV guys. I used to work in the Reds scoreboard which shared a booth with the Jumbo-tron production. You are talking a couple 15" Monitors, some cable and a headset. You are not talking re-inventing TV production believe me. They already have tape rolling for replay.

From an NFHS perspective, allow states to authorize replay for any games that are broadcast on TV at their discretion.

And please dont go saying this is "just High School". Every High School basketball tournament is worth millions of dollars in economic activity not to mention the bell cow along with football in terms of revenue. Teams play and work for months. Officials work for years, sometimes their whole career to reach this game. You want to look that guy in the eye and say "this is JUST a high school game so feel free to kick the biggest call of your career, no one will care. This is JUST an extension of the class room". Are you kidding. Give that official the tools to do the right thing when the stakes are at their highest. In todays day and age, video of his call will be on you tube before he gets home. No one should have to go through that.

I submit, the states will spend more time and money on their hospitality rooms during the tournament than they will need to spend on replay.

Make it happen

Aside from all your other points, which I don't believe are nearly as simple as you argue, many states have no television contract for state finals games.

Again, if the NFHS wants to make it optional for state associations to adopt some sort of replay, I've no problem with it. But it's not nearly as easy and clear-cut as you make it out to be.

This can be solved in the fiba way, wich is
the Referee must approve all video equipment wich can be used before the start of the game, if it isn't aproved before the start you're not allowed to use it.
It may only be used to determine if a last second shot (buzzer beater) was released in time, the video shall not be used for any other infraction.

I think this is a good rule, but I also think that one thing should be added, wich is that officials should be able to use video to replay a fight-sequence.
Since it is nearly impossible to remember everything that happens in such a sequence if it's a big one the officials should be allowed to do this, otherwise you may end up with one official trying to break up the fight and the other standing with a notebook writing down nr's (this has happened! During the european championships in sweden a few years ago).

I hope your talking about state playoffs because I've been to a few high school tourneys where the economic activity doesn't add up.

That's a lot of popcorn.

So essentially you are saying that we should treat the last three games of the season differently from all the other games during the season, right?? Sooooooooo, maybe we should only use NCAA D-I officials for those last three games, because they will all be familiar with the replay procedures and can handle that high-level of a game better????

It's obviously not practical to have replay available for every game, but I do believe it makes sense to have it at the state semifinals and finals. These games could easily be televised. It's only going to be used for last second shots. It is easy enough to do and should be made optional for states that want to adopt it.

Where did I come close to implying that? :confused:

Yes, the last 3 games x however many divisions your state has x boys and girls....yes, the last 3. Why? Not because they are that much more important...the reason is because in MOST cases, the TV is already there anyway so to do so would not put undue burden on the state from a cost perspective. Obviously not all state tournaments have TV which is why I submit the NFHS should change the language to say any time at the individual state's discretion and that each state shall establish their own guidelines relative to this issue.

Put yourself in the shoes of the those crews in Oklahoma, SC and Ohio....They'd have given their game check back to have had replay as an option to fall back on.

Don't make this out like we are curing cancer. All I am really saying is that if your state can do it, the Fed should not be a barrier.

Larks, I think rocky's point is we shouldn't necessarily limit the replay to only the final three (or however many) games. What about that high-profile regular season game between two rivals that is being televised on local cable? I think setting up the rules similar to the NCAA would work; in other words, have specific rules in place in the event there is replay available. Media games vs. non-media games. I don't think the Fed. has to go as far as the NCAA in items such as the number of TO's for each team, or even as to the total number of items that can be reviewed. But perhaps there should be some guidelines in place, given that technology has evolved to the point where televised high school games are much more commonplace.

Much better point. If TV is there I totally agree. Set some guidelines and turn the states loose.

Agreed. All the NFHS has to do is allow it. Then different schools / states are going to implement it and we can see if it solves problems or causes additional problems.

EVERY school videotapes there games. So, the additional equipment would be the monitor at the table. However, without clocks on the backboard and/or red or LEDs, the videotape isn't going to help on a last-second shot situation.

Regarding this play -- I agree with Back In The Saddle -- in real time it looked like she didn't get it off -- even from the crappy at-the-other-end-of-the-court camera angle. I really don't think that this call was very tough and I'm not sure how they missed it.

It looks like trail is opposite table here, which makes him lead at the other end... So, possibly the issue of the quick turnover and a transition play caused a problem -- the shot was taken with the new trail likely in the backcourt or just getting across half-court. Thus, the C would have to help out on the last-second shot. If the C got surprised by the shot and the T was too far to judge, that could have been what caused the missed call.

In slo-mo it is not even close. Its plays like this that make instant replay invaluable. If they could have gone to the monitor they WOULD have gotten this one right. Period. And they would have walked away with no controversy, instead of this article and one team being "robbed".

To the poster that said does this call matter more than a missed foul in the first quarter. Yes. Yes, it does. In a hypothetical world it might not, but the reality of our avocation is that calls in the last minute or two of the game are what matter the most. No one is going to remember a crappy travel call or a bad foul call in the first half of the game versus a call in the last seconds of the game which "determines" the winner. That is just the way it is and the sooner we learn to accept that, the better off we will be.

Someone posted another video in another thread of the same play: http://www.middletownjournal.com/sports/mplayer/m/73866

In this one you can see the official making the call -- and , as I suspected, he is trail.

When you see him enter the frame of the video, he is about a foot away from the halfcourt line. Pretty far away to make a good call on this play imo.

But, at least he sold the hell out of it!

Sell It ...
 

From our former, local, interpreter:

"A good bad call is a strong bad call".

I feel bad for those girls after seeing some of them cry. Also note how the video was created to clearly show the referee "count" the basket at the end of the game.

My personal opinion of these plays is that this is a great case where the T is too far away and the L is right there.

I know that we don't want to look indecisive and we definitely don't want to stick around to observe handshakes :p , but would any of you stick around on the court, look to your partners for a second or two, then confirm the call and leave?

An Cincinnati sports writer writes Against replay.... I know I am arguing for but I figured this would be interesting for this thread:

Op Ed: "Please, no preps replay"

As the trailing ref on that play, all Jacob had to do was follow MND freshman Kathryn Reynolds as she dribbled the ball halfway down the court, keep one eye on the ball, one eye on the red light above the backboard and one eye on the game clock, have two ears attuned to the sound of a horn while thousands of fans went screaming nuts, then engage his brain to process all that information, before making a call that will stick with those girls and their families as long as they live.

He also quotes Sanzere on why he is for Replay

More:
http://tinyurl.com/395gca

I was just suggesting a mechanics change. The T that made the call was the old L and likely was running up the court - barely getting to half. I bet that the new L was stationary and only 8 feet from the shooter.

Interesting...

In one instance, videotape righted a wrong in Ohio

It may be too late for Lakota West's girls' basketball team, but there is at least one instance of the Ohio High School Athletic Association overturning a state championship.

In 1986, Greenhills High School was declared Class AA boys' state cross country champion after a parent's videotape showed an OHSAA scoring error.

More:
http://tinyurl.com/36pd26

In the State Tournament I might have. Unless we were instructed to do otherwise by the evaluators. At least in my State Tournament, there is plenty of security and having to deal with many people is likely not as possible as a regular season game.

Peace