Cal/UCLA DD??
 

Anyone watching Cal/UCLA (men)? Can someone explain the DD call (2nd half, 15:30 mark)? I didn't get a good look, but it didn't look like a violation.

Okay, I'm assuming that shooting over the backboard is legal in NCAA?

And why did they put .7 on the clock on that final oob? Was it when the ball was tapped by UCLA?

And did anyone think that play down in UCLA's corner where the announcers thought the Cal player got hacked was really a foul? There wasn't one good angle on any of the replays.

Also contrary to what the announcers sayd, it was clearly the center's call. Lead didn't have a good angle at all.

No, it's not, but let's keep this discussion in the other thread.

You left coast people................there is only one game today and it's in Durham.

Good points here. Shooting over the backboard is NOT legal in NCAA. Based on what I saw, I believe that the officials call a fist violation, which is why there was more time on the clock and the ball was inbounded on the sideline. If that was the case, however, I believe there should have been 1.5on the clock since the clock was stopped at 1.5 when the fist occurred. Either that or the ball should have been inbounded on the endline with however much time left that they determined when the ball was OOB.

In terms of the "foul" the announcers were barking about, there was no angle that definitively showed any foul. Further, the C made an excellent OOB call giving it to UCLA, so I very much doubt he could "swallow the whistle" if he was that focused on the OOB play. As for the over the backboard, judgement call and it was pretty close, so I think they erred on the side of counting the basket.

Okay, a fist call makes sense. I thought that's what it looked like, but forgot to think about how that would affect the clock.

I also thought the oob call by the C was excellent. That replay from the C's angle made it very, very clear. Regarding the foul, I think there may have been a swung arm, but the ball movement didn't reflect the kind of hack on the arm that the announcers wanted. It looked like a good no call to me.

I did think they could have called a hold on UCLA before the Cal player got the ball. It looked like one UCLA player had his arm all the way around, wth a generous helping of jersey in the hand.

Punch Ball ...
 

Wow. I thought I was the only one to call a fist violation this season. I had some concerns that I was being an overly officious official.

Note to Mark Padgett: Please leave this one alone. I already know what you're thinking.

As far as the double dribble at 15:38 of the 2nd half, I blew a rule this year so I'm not judging, but Dave blew the rule or he thought he saw something that never happened. The Cal player caught the ball, threw it down with 2 hands and recovered the ball. All he did was start a dribble and end a dribble.
So either he reacted with a whistle to an unusual but legal play, or he didn't know it was legal. Like I said I'm not judging a 9 time Final four official.
Shipp's shot was not over the backboard. I watched it 5 times and I saw it go beside the corner not over. And it was so close -- good no call.
To me there is no way they called a fist violation on the ensuing inbound.
There was 1.5 on the clock and the 1st touch was a fist. If they called the violation there would have been 1.2 left not 0.7; I think they were trying to judge how long it took from the touch to where it would have touched out of bounds. The angles I saw did not show the ball in the picture where it would have touched out of bounds.
Any thought to a technical foul on UCLA for entering the court before the expiration of time??? :D :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=SMEngmann]Good points here. Shooting over the backboard is NOT legal in NCAA. Based on what I saw, I believe that the officials call a fist violation, which is why there was more time on the clock and the ball was inbounded on the sideline. If that was the case, however, I believe there should have been 1.5on the clock since the clock was stopped at 1.5 when the fist occurred. Either that or the ball should have been inbounded on the endline with however much time left that they determined when the ball was OOB.QUOTE]

The clock starts on a touch. You have to take time off and the ball goes to the spot of the violation. It should have been 1.2

[QUOTE=socalreff]Why 1.2?

I didn't see the play in question (other than a tiny ESPN.com playback), but are you referring to the rule that at least 0.3 must run off the clock if the ball is inbounded and tipped OOB?

If so, that only applies in the NBA.

[QUOTE=socalreff]Why would the clock start if the touch was a violation, in this case a fist to the ball? The ball was not legally touched in that case, so there should be 1.5 on the clock as I read the rule.

Now, if a fist violation hadn't occurred, the ball clearly went OOB on the baseline, and on my DVR replay, when the game clock showed 0.7 the ball was clearly over OOB but hadn't touched anything yet. My point is that if they called OOB there should have been a baseline throw-in. If they called a fist, there should have been more time on the clock. That's why I'm confused as to what was actually called. Obviously there's something they saw on the monitor that I didn't on my replays.

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought she was talking about the cheerleaders. :D

[QUOTE=SMEngmann]I saw the replay from 2 angles. They got it wrong. Either 1.2 with fist violation or 0.1 at the most when it touched out of bounds. The reason for time coming off with the violation is because the clock starts on a touch, not a legal touch. Don't confuse it with the throw-in ending rule.
The reason the NBA does 0.3 in these situations is to be consistent across the board and 0.4 or more you can catch. You could take off .1 or .2 if you'd like.

[QUOTE=socalreff]Where's your definite knowledge? You can't just pull a number out of your a$$, no matter how accurate you think your a$$ may be.

Yes, the rule is only in the NBA but on any touch some time has to run off.
I like 0.3 because it's consistent. Similar to an end of game situation where one team is trying to foul on a throw-in. If you deem the player caught it before the foul, you take off at least 0.4 -- it keeps it consistent. This is one area where the NBA staff is the best in the world -- knowing the clock, and it helps them to have specific language for these situations. I'm not saying anything about any other aspects of NBA officiating.

[QUOTE=Snaqwells]But my butt is very accurate!!! :p
You can catch and shoot with 0.4 or more and you can tap with 0.3 or less....as a barometer or measuring stick.
Question -- If the ball is inbounded and touched before going out, and no time goes off, are you gonna leave it or take time off?

My point has nothing to do with whether your approach makes sense. My point is you cannot do what you're suggesting, by rule. If the NFHS wants it (and the NCAA), then they should add it. Lord knows they've had time to do it if they want. They haven't.
To answer your question. I'd leave it on, because there's no rule that allows me to take any time off there.

Now, I'll address whether it makes sense (aside from the rules.)
It doesn't. The time it takes to catch and shoot has nothing to do with the time it takes a punched ball to travel out of bounds. They're two completely different acts.

Now, to the

If you start a count on the touch and reach one or more whole seconds, you can take the appropriate number of seconds off, otherwise you leave it alone.

[QUOTE=socalreff]Clock stays where it is.

I prefer the NBA rule, but at the NCAA/NFHS level, you have NO rule support whatsoever for doing that. Unless you have definitive knowledge of the time involved, it's a timer's error that you can't correct. If you're working NCAA, you may be able to go to the monitor with a stopwatch, but even that won't be 100% accurate.

[QUOTE=Mark Dexter]Of course I have support in the book:
c. Timing.
2. Determine whether a timing mistake has occurred in either starting
or stopping the game clock. Determination is based on the judgment
of the official. Such a mistake shall be corrected during the first
dead ball or during the next live ball but before the ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have
been continuously running, the mistake shall be corrected before the
second live ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player.
No timing mistake correction shall be carried over from one half or
extra period to another. Such a mistake shall be corrected before the
start of intermission.

It says nothing about DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE like people keep trying to use high school language. It is a JUDGMENT CALL!!! This language was specifically put in (heard directly from Struckoff and Nichols) to allow the officials to do the right thing.

It Took Me A Second, But I Got it ...
 

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/pict/2...78838080_1.jpg

WonderBra White 38 DD Cup

[QUOTE=socalreff]Methinks that you need to borrow an NCAA rule book from somebody and do a little reading..

See NCAA rule 5-11-1--<i>"When a timing mistake has occurred because of the failure to start or stop the clock properly, the mistake shall be corrected <b>ONLY</b> when the referee has <b>DEFINITE INFORMATION</b> relative to the time involved."</i>

Rule 5-11-4 also says <i>"definite information relative to the mistake...".</i>

The FED and NCAA rules are basically the same except for the monitor being allowed to gain definite information under NCAA rules.

NCAA Rule 5-9-4:

"When play is resumed by throw in, the game clock and the shot clock shall be started when the ball is <b>legally</b> touched by or touches a player on the playing court."

If the officials ruled that the ball was fisted, replays showed that the fist was the initial touch, which was a violation, so the clock would stay 1.5 since there was no legal touch. If the clock were to start on any touch, there would be no need to stipulate "legally" in the book.

I do agree with you that 0.7 sideline inbound doesn't make sense given the info that we have.

[QUOTE=socalreff]As Jurassic has pointed out, you're reading the wrong section of the rulebook. The official judges whether or not a timing error has occurred. Once he/she judges that an error has occurred, he/she needs "definite information" (whether from a count, the table crew, partners, the TV feed) as to how to correct that error.

They should add this play to the case book as there are multiple times a year the first touch is illegal, usually a kick.