T or not a T ?
 

I brought this up previously ( but not as a new thread ) and didn't really get it cleared up . Any help is appreciated .

This situation came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench . They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

Rule is not entirely clear, but I'd side with being able to call it, depending on your definition of "participating":

10-1-6...Have more than five team members participating simultaneously.
PENALTY: (Art. 6) Penalized if discovered while being violated.

No "T". You can only penalize it if you discover it while it's being violated. NFHS rule 10-1-6. and case book play 10.1.6(b).

if the coach wants to burn a timeout to keep away from the T then I think we need to let him. Besides that I am not sure that walking off of the floor to a timeout is participating....who is to say that another person from the bench didn't run out to greet their team mates...I know that isn't how it happened but it is plausible enough since they didn't know where the 6th player came from to begin with...

Case book play 10.1.6(b) is clear.

I guess I'm not sure that this case play applies. It was brought to their attention after the game had ended in that situation.

This seems to me to be a different situation, as 6 players are noticed during a dead ball. If you noticed the 6 players after a violation and before beginning the subsequent throw-in, would you not call the technical foul? I'm sure you would, but want a rationale for treating these situations differently.

Don't be so sure. I wouldn't. They weren't participating when I noticed it. Now they aren't going to participate until the 6th player is sitting on the bench.

Are you sure they aren't participating? I'm looking through my Rules Book right now and can't find a definition of "participating." Doesn't mean it isn't there, but I'd have a hard time not penalizing six players on the court when I noticed it after I called a travel and it was obvious they were playing with six before I called it.

Edit to add: If this was only to be penalized during a live ball, it should say so.

Before the subsequent throw-in?

1) Before ball is at disposal of thrower-in I would employ the famous "preventive officiating" and hold up play until 6th person leaves the court. (Something I did last week)

or

2) If ball is at disposal of thrower-in then the ball is live and you penalize accordingly.

Um, no I wouldn't. You have to notice 6 players participating during a <b>live</b> ball. They're not violating any rule until the ball becomes live.

If you look at part(a) of that case play, it says that you can penalize the team after the ball becomes dead <b>if</b> you had knowledge that 6 players were actually participating at the same time. In the original post, it was stated that the officials were <b>not</b> aware that the team had 6 players participating until after the ball became dead. Without having previous knowledge that 6 players were participating, you can't retroactively penalize that team. That's what part (b) of that case play is telling us.

I only have the '05 and '06 casebook handy, but if the play sitch is the same, the only reason the ruling was no T was the fact that time had run out. Just because the clock is stopped and they aren't playing doesn't mean you don't have an infraction going on then -- per the rule, just like you wouldn't ignore the infraction if you didn't realize the 6 were on the court until you called a foul or violation for other reasons. You still have the same deal: 6 on the floor (even if leaving) during a dead ball.

I do, however, think (or at least the case can be made that) the casebook play applies to end of quarter situations -- not just end of game. But I don't think it applies to time out situations like clock stoppages and called TOs. The rule doesn't say that and neither does the case play. Don't read more into the case play or ruling then what is there. We have to assume the committee was aware of different situations and made the ruling based on this one.

I don't have the rule book handy, so I'll ask: does the rule use that language? If not, where are you getting that interp from?

Even if the 6th player had been on the court during the live ball preceding the violation? I'm not talking about during a substitution process, and then you count and realize there are 6 out there and you wait until a player leaves, I'm talking about a situation where there has been 6 on the court, you blow a travel, everyone heads the other way and then as you get ready to administer the throw-in you realize that A has (and has had) 6 players on the court.

Yes, the rule is just as I typed it in post #2.

Can you cite a rule saying that it's illegal to have 6 players on the floor during a dead ball? If you can, please do. I'm not aware of one.

I apologize for assuming. I just don't see that the case play applies. It involves the end of a game, not a dead ball during a game.

I'm more than open to being convinced, but I haven't been yet. I simply don't see not penalizing A when the rule does not explicitly state "during a live ball".

Can you cite a rule stating that "participating" only involves a live ball situation?

Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.

Agreed, if that was the case, we'd have a T on just about every substitution.

Yup.

Would you call a flagrant technical foul on a player who changed his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official if you discovered it during a dead ball? It has the exact same language.

There is obviously no rule that it's illegal to have 6 players on the court at any time during a dead ball. There's also no rule stating it's permissible to have more than 5 on the court during a dead ball. Is it okay for every bench player to step onto the court during the interval between a violation and the subsequent throw-in?

Again, I'm waiting for the definition of "participating." It's what this whole discussion revolves around.

Sounds like someone cannot count to 10

No, I sureasheck wouldn't call a "T". Why? Because the player is no longer participating.

It uses the exact same language as 6 players participating does. You have to discover it while the player is <b>participating</b>, exactly like it says in both 10-1-6 and 10-3-1. If you didn't discover it while the player was participating, it's too late when the ball becomes dead and the player is no longer participating.

JR, I really appreciate all your insight, but you've yet to answer the critical question - what is the definition of participating? Players don't become bench personnel at each dead ball. They are still players. That indicates to me they are "participating" unless someone can provide me a definition that states that participating only applies to live balls.

If you want to play linguistic games, be my guest. I'm done. I'm just repeating myself.

I told you what the rule is and I gave you the accompanying rules citations. If you don't want to believe that's how the concept of "penalized if discovered while being violated" is interpreted and applied.....versus "penalized when discovered", I suggest you ask your local or state rules interpreter for their interpretation. Let us know when you get your answer.

I'll ask and let you know when I get an answer. It's what I tried to do here.

I'm sorry you think my legitimate question (how does the NFHS define "participate"?) is a linguistic game. It was the one question I asked consistently and the only question that matters.

Actually, I posted the rule. You gave a case book citation I don't believe applies.

I know you said you're done, but if you can cite that the players on the court cease to "participate" at every dead ball, I'll be in complete agreement with you. I always respect your positions on rulings, but in attempting to have as complete rules knowledge as possible, I'm simply looking for a definition of what "participating" means.

Without a rule citation to define it, I think it's safe to assume the rules committee is thinking of the common definition of the word. By common definition, no player is really participating in the game during a dead ball when the clock is stopped.

And I think this is probably where the disagreement comes in. I would consider the ten players on the court setting up/defending an inbounds play or getting into their designated lane spaces to be participating. They are still "players" by definition, not bench personnel, and that's where I'm getting my interpretation of participating.

Seems most disagree with that, though, so I'll stop until I hear something more from the state. Good thing I don't have any more games this year - certainly after this discussion this situation was bound to happen in my next game! :D

10.1.6 b ...
 

10.1.6 Situation: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.
Ruling: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Maybe, just maybe. But....
In the OP, the players are not doing anything but walking towards their bench. No participating going on.
In the case of a violation (or foul, or held ball) and the accompanying dead ball, I'd argue they're not participating here either. If the ball is dead and the clock is stopped, participation has paused for everyone, IMO.

Situation: Middle of the 4th quarter, team A leads and is running a delay offense with lots of motion. Team B is playing man to man defense, then trapping and trying for steals. A passes out and is not looking to score. This continues for a considerable portion of the 4th quarter, then the ball is knocked out of bounds on the end line. For the throw in, B goes to a zone. Just before he hands the ball to A1, the official thinks that something looks funny about the look of the zone of team B. Upon closer inspection, he sees the problem. It is a 3-3 zone. Does he instruct one of the B players to leave the court. No, he calls a technical foul. The official is certain that no player entered the court during the dead ball. When he combines this knowledge with the sight of all 6 players jockeying for their positions on the court anticipating the actions of players on team A, he considers this participation.

Good Defense Is The Best Offensive
 

One of the greatest halfcourt defenses in basketball. Personally, I prefer the 2-2-2 fullcourt press. It leads to a lot of turnovers and easy layups.