Here is a crazy play for you guys. The way it should be handled will be different on each level so there should be a lot of discussion.

A1 steals the ball from B1 at halfcourt. A1 dribbles towards his basket, picks the ball up, and begins his shooting motion. His teammate A2 is behind him and B1 is behind A2. B1 can't get to A1 so he pushes A2. A2 runs into A1 and knocks him down. The ball pops out of A1's hands and falls to the floor.

What is the call?

I would probally call that an intentional foul, 2 shots and the ball.

Common foul on B1 against A2, unless I felt it was intentional or flagrant.

At the very lease it is an intentional foul. Maybe even a flagrant foul. This is for pushing A2. A1 would not be shooting any shots for the foul.

more info
 

Bart, you say A1 wouldn't be shooting free throws. What if the shot went in. Would you wave it off? What level are you guys talking about. Make sure to post that.






[Edited by bpf on Feb 27th, 2002 at 03:36 PM]

All levels( i don't know NBA rules). If the ball has not been released then the basket does not count.

"If the ball has not been released then the basket does not count."

That's not true on any level. It's when the shooting motion begins. In this case the shooting motion started when he picked up the ball for his layup attempt. Correct???

This is an off ball foul so the play is Dead when A2 got pushed. The foul is not on A1, the ball would have to be out of the hands for the basket to count.

Actually, I think A1 would just have to be in the shooting motion. The ball only has to be released when the foul is on the teammate of the shooter, right? I will go look it up to make sure.

That's the way I read Exception 3 to Rule 6-7-7. Doesn't say anything about the foul having to be on the shooter, just an opponent of the shooter committing a foul and the shooting motion having previously begun.

[Edited by devdog69 on Feb 27th, 2002 at 03:48 PM]

Bart, are you saying that if A1 was up in the air shooting a jump shoot fromt the corner but the ball had not been released yet when B3 pushes A2 in the lane that the shot would not count if it went in and you had a foul on B3? Assuming the contact is signifigant enough to have a whistle.

I don't see what off the ball has to do with it? the player is still in the act of shooting.

When there is a whistle, the ball is dead, except when the shooter is fouled in the act of shooting. So, in your play with the shot in the corner and a foul in the paint then the basket does not count.

The exception noted by devdog69 says differently, check it out. (NFHS)

There was an NFHS exam question (Part II) that dealt with this situation. Live ball - Dead ball - question 63 (true or false), the ball becomes dead if A1 has started a try for goal, but B1 pushes A2 before the ball is in flight.

The answer is false, rule 6-7-7 exp 3. (agree with devdog69)

Section 7 - dead ball
The ball becomes dead, or remains dead when:
Art. 7 a foul occurs (see exception below)
#3 a foul is committed by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (isin the act of shooting) before the foul occured, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in flight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket.


After re-reading the original thread, the foul would be on B1 with A2 shooting the free throws, if in the bonus. I would have to see it and determine if it was intentional or a common foul.

You are miss reading this. It does say on the player who is shooting.

Sorry, Bart -- you're the one who is misreading this. The exception says "any opponent" -- that means that if anyone on the defense commits a foul after the shooting motion has started, the ball remains live. The shooter need not be the one who is fouled.

See, for example, 6.7D (yes, it's during a FT, but the concept is the same)

So in high school and college if team A is not in the penalty then they would just get the ball out of bounds?? That doesn't seem fair since A1 missed his layup, or atleast was deprieved of attempting it, because B1 pushed A2 into him. B1 should be assessed an intentional at the very least I would think. I don't see how it could't be intentional.

OK, This is very poor grammar. " A foul is committed by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal etc.... Now according to the English language, this means any opponent who fouls the shooter. However, after reading 6.7D in the case book, then i will concur with you guys. :( I will admit i am wrong. :( I will continue to hold my head high even in defeat and at the same time be humble. So you don't have to get in my face with the " i told you so's ". And that is all i have to say concerning this subject. Except, it would be nice if one, just one of you guys would agree the wording is poor grammar.

i agree, the wording is poor and can be confusing. I think this play is good to talk about in regards to a try for goal. when does the shooting motion start? how often do you watch a college game on tv and see baskets waved off when they should have counted. continuation is the same of every level, although many people don't think that. the shooting motion starts when the ball is picked up in an effort to shoot. it's good to have an understanding of that concept so that we don't take points or free throws away from players in the act of shooting.

I would probably call this an intentional foul with A2 shooting the 2 shots.

I told you so!:D
The debbil made me do it!

Bart, I had the same internal brainfart midseason where I convinced myself of the same thing. If it twern't fer thees hier boored, dont know wut i wud do.