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-   -   Halftime adjustments? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/42251-halftime-adjustments.html)

bellnier Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:31pm

Halftime adjustments?
 
Just curious is all...

I was watching a BV Sectional game last night and there was little flow, in either direction, in the first half...foul and violation calls on nearly every trip. The second half was like an entirely different game with significantly fewer whistles. I could see how both teams made adjustments, but it was pretty apparent that the officials made some adjustments as well. How does this work? I officiate a sport where there is only one ref, so I never get the opportunity to get input from a second official at halftime. Thanks.

WhistlesAndStripes Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:36pm

You poor guy. Must be a soccer ref. ;)

Anyhow, we always talk at halftime and adjust as necessary. It really depends on the game, the level of play, etc.

grunewar Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
.....but it was pretty apparent that the officials made some adjustments as well. How does this work?

Can you explain what you saw? IYO, what adjustments did you perceive the refs made? Did they "loosen up?" Not call as much? Not make the same calls? Let em play more or tighten up? Just curious.

bellnier Tue Feb 26, 2008 01:08pm

W&S --- not soccer!

grunewar --- officials seemed to lighten up a bit on carries (both point guards were iffy with their stop-and-go moves...4 or 5 called in first half, maybe one in second) and contact fouls under basket, esp. rebounding, were called fewer times. Other changes I couldn't identify because this is a sport totally unlike mine...it's really, really tough seeing everything you folks see...but the flow was palpably better in 2nd half.

Adam Tue Feb 26, 2008 01:11pm

Are you sure the officials adjusted? Sometimes, after having 4 or 5 carries called in the first half, players actually adjust and stop violating.
Same goes for fouls.

Jurassic Referee Tue Feb 26, 2008 01:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
...but the flow was palpably better in 2nd half.

Usually the reason for the flow becoming better isn't the officials changing anything. It's the officials being consistent and the players adjusting to their consistency.

grunewar Tue Feb 26, 2008 01:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
W&S --- not soccer!

grunewar --- officials seemed to lighten up a bit on carries (both point guards were iffy with their stop-and-go moves...4 or 5 called in first half, maybe one in second) and contact fouls under basket, esp. rebounding, were called fewer times. Other changes I couldn't identify because this is a sport totally unlike mine...it's really, really tough seeing everything you folks see...but the flow was palpably better in 2nd half.

I had a game a few weeks back similar to the one you discuss - but it was the coaches and players who adjusted.

At halftime, my partner and I discussed all the fouls, hand checks, rough play, etc. the game had no flow. We discussed: things to look out for in the second half, hand checks, blocks, players to watch, a double whistle, maybe being out of position on a play or a late switch, etc.

Within the first minute of the second half - TWEET! I called another hold! Darn, were we going to have this again? Nope. Buzzer! Coach immediately replaced the player who committed the foul. Apparently, the teams had also talked about what we were calling and the coaches were going to have none of the sloppy play either. 2nd half was good basketball.

bellnier Tue Feb 26, 2008 01:19pm

Not 100% 'sure', but just that feeling that there was something going on besides the kids adjusting. In my sport (rugby) the ref sometimes chats with his/her 2 touch-judges at halftime (and during the game) but typically, at the HS and College level, they are representatives of the opposing teams so objectivity is an issue. It's pretty tough with 30 players on the pitch at once and it would be great if there was a second objective soul to discuss penalty calls, game management, etc.

IUgrad92 Tue Feb 26, 2008 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
Not 100% 'sure', but just that feeling that there was something going on besides the kids adjusting. In my sport (rugby) the ref sometimes chats with his/her 2 touch-judges at halftime (and during the game) but typically, at the HS and College level, they are representatives of the opposing teams so objectivity is an issue. It's pretty tough with 30 players on the pitch at once and it would be great if there was a second objective soul to discuss penalty calls, game management, etc.

I thought the only rule in rugby was that there aren't any rules...... :D

JugglingReferee Tue Feb 26, 2008 04:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IUgrad92
I thought the only rule in rugby was that there aren't any rules...... :D

Naw... I think that's the UFC.

Adam Tue Feb 26, 2008 05:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Naw... I think that's the UFC.

Which is Rugby without the ball.

JugglingReferee Tue Feb 26, 2008 06:17pm

I'm a bit hesitant about making halftime adjustments. I've worked very hard on being a consistent official. If coaches take the time during the break to change their game, and then I go and change my game, they have reason to be frustrated by not knowing what to expect from the officials.

I think it's fair for officials to recognize at halftime the changes that the teams are making. Even this past weekend, my P and I discussed how the teams were changing their games based on the time left in the game and the score. Regional playoffs can make teams play very fundamental basketball.

JRutledge Tue Feb 26, 2008 06:35pm

I have no problem with officials making adjustments. I know it is common that officials discuss the events of the first half and then address those issues in the second half. For example, are we seeing screens and we might talk about making sure we call some things early or make sure we are not missing many illegal screens, hand checking or other things that were common in the first half.

But having said all of that, this does not mean what was witnessed was an adjustment by the officials. I also do not feel you sacrifice consistency because you decide to address things in a different half or even quarter.

bellnier Tue Feb 26, 2008 06:43pm

advantage/disadvantage
 
In rugby we take the advantage-disadvantage principle to extreme...for example, if defense (white) commits an infraction against offense (black), offense is allowed to continue play until the official deems that any advantage they may have had before the penalty was reversed by the defensive players mistake. Retention of advantage may be yardage gained, completion of pass(es), etc. and can be somewhat subjective. If no advantage is lost, then no whistle. Official announces on field 'advantage black' when the infraction is commited. The announcement is not always heard from the sidelines so to the typical observer this indeed looks like a 'rule-less' game, but in fact this concept ensures good game flow with very few interruptions.

JRutledge Tue Feb 26, 2008 06:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
In rugby we take the advantage-disadvantage principle to extreme...for example, if defense (white) commits an infraction against offense (black), offense is allowed to continue play until the official deems that any advantage they may have had before the penalty was removed by the defensive players mistake. Retention of advantage may be yardage gained, completion of pass(es), etc. and is somewhat subjective. If no advantage is lost, then no whistle. Official announces on field 'advantage black' when the infraction is commited. To the typical observer, this indeed looks like a 'rule-less' game, but in fact this concept ensures good game flow with very few interruptions.

In basketball at least when it comes to fouls, that is very similar. What we call in basketball is very subjective. And that is why you will see official argue over what should be done or what should not be done. Because the rules ask for the basketball officials to not call fouls just based on contact, but to call fouls if there movement is affected which also brings a lot of subjectivity. As it relates to calling a foul from one half to another, it is possible that officials discussed these situations and decide not to be so quick to blow their whistle or in some cases to be quicker. That happens even from quarter to quarter based on the type of game that is being played.

Peace

bellnier Wed Feb 27, 2008 09:46am

...one real difference between calling rugby and BB, then, is that when you see an infraction/foul you blow the play dead more often than not, while we won't stop play if the offended team can take advantage of the infraction...only if they fail to do so, by failing to gain yardage or complete their play (and this is where the referee's subjectivity comes into effect), do we blow the whistle. This is the case for all but a very few violations of rugby law.

What sometimes confuses me about BB officiating is the consistent application of advantage-disadvantage. In soem games I see things like hand checks with no displacement and (to my eyes) no change in advantage being called. I see this and think "Huh? that wasn't much..." and wonder why it was called in this game and not in another (this isn't a criticism by any means...)...this is admittedly maybe my bias because law violations in rugby are more black and white.

JRutledge Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
What sometimes confuses me about BB officiating is the consistent application of advantage-disadvantage. In soem games I see things like hand checks with no displacement and (to my eyes) no change in advantage being called. I see this and think "Huh? that wasn't much..." and wonder why it was called in this game and not in another (this isn't a criticism by any means...)...this is admittedly maybe my bias because law violations in rugby are more black and white.

The hand checking foul is not just about displacement. Hand checking is a foul when there is control, directing, stopping and displacement involved. So based on your understanding that is why you are confused. You did not know all the aspects of the rule. ;)

Peace

Junker Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:23am

Back to the OP, I'm not one for adjusting at half-time. When I'm the R and when I'm with my regular crew, we talk about calling our game and it is the players' job to adjust.

bellnier Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:29am

...you're right about the great unwashed (most casual fans of the game, 99.9% of parents in the stands, and unfortunately many of the players) not knowing the intracacies of BB rules (I hardly ever see you folks calling 'over-the-back' and 'reach-in' fouls ;) what's up with that?). BTW, we're really drifting away from the OP, but I appreciate this conversation. Just yesterday I met with HS BV and GV coaches and suggested to them that at the beginning of next preseason they wrangle a BB official to give a chalk-talk of the rules.

JRutledge Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
Just yesterday I met with HS BV and GV coaches and suggested to them that at the beginning of next preseason they wrangle a BB official to give a chalk-talk of the rules.

During several scrimmages that I have worked over the years in basketball and my other sports, that is a common thing we do.

I see it much more helpful in football because there are some real myths out there that are harder to explain.

Peace

Jurassic Referee Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
...one real difference between calling rugby and BB, then, is that <font color = red>when you see an infraction/foul you blow the play dead more often than not</font>, while we won't stop play if the offended team can take advantage of the infraction...only if they fail to do so, by failing to gain yardage or complete their play (and this is where the referee's subjectivity comes into effect), do we blow the whistle. This is the case for all but a very few violations of rugby law.

Jeff already addressed that but I don't think that you really understood his explanation. Yes, when we see a foul/violation, we blow the play dead. The judgment lies in deciding first whether it actually was a foul or a violation. What might be a foul in a spectator's eyes is not necessarily a foul in the calling official's eyes. We generally use advantage/disadvantage on fouls only, but that statement isn't all-encompassing either.

If we decide that it is a foul or violation, we call it immediately. If we decide it isn't, we naturally don't call anything.

bellnier Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:56am

JR...I understood the earlier explanation. The difference is that when we see a clear violation (with some exceptions) we DON'T call it immediately...rather, we wait to see if the offended team can 'do something with it' and if they fail, THEN we blow the whistle. For example, in BB I sometimes see a player make a FG but because of a foul that occurs slightly before the shooting motion begins the whistle blows, the basket is negated, and the player is awarded FT attempts. In rugby, the whistle would be delayed and if the basket is made...play on...if the shot is missed...stop the play.

Cajun Reff Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Usually the reason for the flow becoming better isn't the officials changing anything. It's the officials being consistent and the players adjusting to their consistency.


good point

and also the coach may get a look at the stat sheet and see how many fouls his players have and use the halftime speech to make a point to tell his kids to stop fouling

sometimes teams just come out guns blazing in the first half and merely settle down in the second half

I often think the reffs get too much blame and too much credit

JugglingReferee Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff's signature
Coach, that's not my call.

Whose call is it? The popcorn guys'? :D

Cajun Reff Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
Whose call is it? The popcorn guys'? :D

the quote is from my coaching days and seeing 2-man crews all the time

I loved to ask the officials what they saw there and I loved it when they said "coach that's not my call"

I would always reply "next time it happens can it be my call? cause I will make it"

now that I am on the other side with a whistle, I have made a personal vow to never utter that statement to a coach. I prefer to rely on "coach, I didnt see it, but I'll keep a look out for next time" :D

JRutledge Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff
the quote is from my coaching days and seeing 2-man crews all the time

I loved to ask the officials what they saw there and I loved it when they said "coach that's not my call"

I would always reply "next time it happens can it be my call? cause I will make it"

now that I am on the other side with a whistle, I have made a personal vow to never utter that statement to a coach. I prefer to rely on "coach, I didnt see it, but I'll keep a look out for next time" :D

I agree that an official should not say that, but in reality, all officials are not watching the same things. And coaches tend to ask the officials that question is least likely to see a play the question about the play.

Peace

Adam Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff
the quote is from my coaching days and seeing 2-man crews all the time

I loved to ask the officials what they saw there and I loved it when they said "coach that's not my call"

Coach, I had the same crappy angle you did, so I was watching off-ball.

bellnier Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:46pm

I'm trying not to be judgmental, but I find it odd (not necessarily 'bad') that so many of you don't make adjustments during the game at at half time with your partner(s). In rugby, the level of play, level of control, level of athleticism, etc. can be vastly different from age-to-age, boys games-vs-girls games, new team-vs-experienced team, etc. Sometimes I might begin a game refereeing at the 'wrong level', requiring me to make some adjustments upwards or downwards. Reading this, you BB folks might rightly respond to this by saying 'then the kids don't know what to expect'...but this is mitigated by the fact that a good (IMO) rugby ref always informs players, even at the pro level, of impending infractions...you'll often hear a ref saying things like '...your coming in offsides #11...' or '...hands out of the ruck #4...'. Is this kind of preemptive talk practiced in BB? some of you do and some don't? Bad idea?

BillyMac Wed Feb 27, 2008 08:34pm

Rookie Pregame
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
The hand checking foul is not just about displacement. Hand checking is a foul when there is control, directing, stopping and displacement involved. So based on your understanding that is why you are confused. You did not know all the aspects of the rule.

This is part of my pregame that I use with rookie officials:

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
Two hands on the ball-handler is a foul. Automatic.
One hand that stays on the dribbler is a foul.
Remember RSBQ. If the dribbler’s Rythym, Speed, Balance, or Quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul.

Back In The Saddle Wed Feb 27, 2008 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellnier
I'm trying not to be judgmental, but I find it odd (not necessarily 'bad') that so many of you don't make adjustments during the game at at half time with your partner(s). In rugby, the level of play, level of control, level of athleticism, etc. can be vastly different from age-to-age, boys games-vs-girls games, new team-vs-experienced team, etc. Sometimes I might begin a game refereeing at the 'wrong level', requiring me to make some adjustments upwards or downwards. Reading this, you BB folks might rightly respond to this by saying 'then the kids don't know what to expect'...but this is mitigated by the fact that a good (IMO) rugby ref always informs players, even at the pro level, of impending infractions...you'll often hear a ref saying things like '...your coming in offsides #11...' or '...hands out of the ruck #4...'. Is this kind of preemptive talk practiced in BB? some of you do and some don't? Bad idea?

You'll hear stuff like that a lot in my games: "Out of the key" or "Straight up" or "Hands off." But you probably won't hear it all game. Either they'll react to my warnings and clean it up, or I'll just penalize the infraction and they'll be forced to adjust.

Rarely will I make major adjustments at halftime. I start the game with a basic game plan and an attitude of letting the game come to me. Any necessary adjustments are usually made within the first few minutes of play. After that, my goal is to keep it consistent right on through to the end of the game.

My basic game plan has been refined over the years to incorporate the many hard-learned lessons of the "if we had done such-and-such earlier, this wouldn't have happened" variety. That usually precludes the need to make major changes at halftime.


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