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Why do High School officials dislike College officials so much?
I have seen this for about 2 years now and am so glad I got out of H.S. basketball.
Please tell me this happens elsewhere??? |
I'm confused as to the question. Could you please eloborate?
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Disclaimer - this only applies to the areas where I've lived.
It is jealousy. What I will here often is high school officials don't want to put in the extra time, but if a college contract was dangled in front of them they would jump at it. We have HS meetings and people always say something negative about college officials. This year I told this guy that when I go to a HS meeting, I'm a HS official. I don't think there should be any animosity, but there is. Many officials can't take when someone learns something and brings it back, normally from a higher level. Other times you will hear people talk about the differences when they really don't know the differences. Just my opinion, from my experience. |
I can't really speak to why there is hostility because I certainly don't feel it. Different folks look for different things out of officiating. I've worked with a bunch of folks in sub-varsity this year who are just fine staying there and have no aspirations to move higher.
I have my sights on HS varsity but no further because the extra travel/effort above and beyond HS varsity isn't worth it to me. It would be silly for me to dislike someone who decided that was their ultimate goal, however. I say more power to them, good luck, and I hope they have fun doing it. People seem to get worked up over some very strange things but this one seems especially ridiculous. |
I have heard from some high school officials that they get the impression that college officials look down on them. The high school officials sometimes feel that the college guys don't really have any regard or respect for officials who are "only" high school refs.
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My main gripe is that college officials will routinely dump high school games if there's a makeup college game without regard to who they get as a replacement. It happened in a few games around here last night. My partner ended up working the JV and varsity games because of a shortage. Another game was going to use 3 officials and one of the guys bailed to take a college game.
Also, some college officials work just enough HS games to qualify for the post-season and then swoop in and expect every possible HS post-season assignment to go to them now that their college season is done. It's transparent. |
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It's understood here that college assignments take priority over high school assignments, even if it means that you turn back the high school game. There's no "retribution" (for lack of a better word) from the assignor. Quote:
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Agree with the others, I see college officials that want the best of both worlds, and expect as much. Ticks me off to see college officials working a high school game using college mechanics. So if you're doing college now Joey, just leave us mean-spirited, dis-liking, high school officials alone and just do college ball. :p BTW, I know college officials that do high school and they respect and use NFHS mechanics. I like those guys a lot.:D |
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I work 35 HS games and someone works 8 and we should get the same number of games? EDITED to ADD: With some minor exceptions, I'm happy with my postseason schedule. This isn't personal whining, here, just an observation. |
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Iow, imo there is no possible one-size-fits-all answer available to your question. I've seen high school officials who I thought were quite capable of doing D1 games. I seen college officials at all levels that I thought should pay to get in the games they were officiating. I also seen college officials at the lower college levels that were quite capable imo of handling D1 games if they were ever given a chance. Every case is different, every official is different, and generalization is inherently wrong imho. |
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Peace |
I completely agree with Jurassic that doing JC ball is not for the money. And in every case, every official is different... You really can't generalize.
From one HS association, I have refs who think I don't deserve to be there because I'm relatively young to officiating (experience wise). From another association, I have refs who think highly of me now because I now work at the JUCO level. I want to share one of my experiences with you guys.... I did a JC game this season that took me about 8+ hours and got paid only $115. Take $35 dollars our of the $115 for gas because round trip from work to gym and back home is about 260 miles. I make about $120 dollars doing two local varsity games that'll take me 3 hour at most and 5 minute of travel time. So tip off is 6pm on a Friday night. Our JC association requires us to get there at least 1 hour before tip off. I assumed the drive will take about 2 hours without traffic. On Friday afternoon, you never know what the roads will be like. I left work at about 2:00 pm to give myself ample of time for travel. The drive took just about 3 hours. I got there right around 5:00. Game ended at about 7:45pm. After our post-game talk and shower, I left the gym at about 8:30PM. Got home at 10:15ish The gym had about 30 fans and that was it. It was cold and empty. But JC college games will always take precedence over any hs games - despite of an 8+ hour trip. |
Virtually all of our varsity officials fall into one of 3 categories:
1) they are a college official 2) working on being a college official 3) has no interest in being a college official, including those that have worked college and don't now for whatever reason -- travel, time, lack of interest, etc. I don't get any hint of animosity between any of the groups, personally. If you can work, you can work, and most guys take notice of that fact alone. There's more issues concerning personality than there are with being or not being a college official. |
I had a discussion with a long time full schedule D1 guy recently. He works 6 or 7 HS games a year and at the end of every season he gets calls begging him to take HS playoff games. He said he doesn't like to do HS playoffs because it's a no-win situation. If he does well they say he should do well, he's a D1 guy. If he doesn't they'll point and say look, the D1 guy f'ed it up. But that's the way it is, generally the assignors want the best people possible to work their games, it makes them look good.
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I don't want to piss off the people that have bailed my azz out all season long right up to the playoffs. If they've done a good job for me, I <b>owe</b> them. And I don't want to lose them. If they can do the job.... maybe not quite as well as the D1 guy but still do the job.... then I'll use 'em. |
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Gee I'll bet that if you had a guy that worked 8 lower level college games and a full HS schedule get a college post season assignment over a guy that worked a full lower level college schedule that college guy would be busting a vein screaming bloody murder about it.
That is why there is friction, college officials just assume they are better officials and in many cases it just isn't true. In a lot of cases they are young and have "the look" the assignor was looking for and they figured they could mold them into a good ref. But for every inexperienced "look" ref working college there are dozens of experienced HS officials that can call a better game. |
I don't think that one can make the blanket statement that officials that only officiate high school basketball dislike college officials.
Officials of amateur contests can be divided into the following categories: 1) Officials that only officiate at the high school level and below. 2) Officials that officiate a mixed schedule of high school and college. 3) Officials that only officiate at the college level. The percentage of H.S. and college games for a Group #2 official can vary from official to official. It has been my experience that there is a small group of officials in both Groups #2 and #3, that think that they walk on water. These schmucks can give the rest of the members in those two groups a bad name. I have also found that there is a small group of officials on Group #1 that resent officials who are in Groups #2 and #3 because they think that they should be officiating at the college level and they are not. These are the officials that do not know the rules or casebook plays, their mechanics are terrible and resent officials (Group #1, #2, and #3) who do know the rules and apply them correctly and use correct mechanics. These officials will always be with us and there is not much one can do about it. MTD, Sr. |
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My game check tonight was $100 and I worked a 7:30PM game that ended at 8:42PM and we were showered and in the car before 9PM. In the bar before 9:40PM. Driving 8 hours? No thanks. |
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And the last thing I am ever going to do is be in the bar after most games. This is all about person preference and what you enjoy and why you officiate. I can tell you I do not do this for the money and could care less what I make when I officiate any game. If money was the gauge of my officiating I would not travel very far for the high school games I work. I will say this, most college officials are better trained and better officials because they learn things that many HS officials do not get exposed to. That is not a basketball thing that is a sports officiating thing. There are things I mostly do not have to worry about when I have a college official working with me in any sport. True college officials usually attend more camps and more training before they ever step onto any floor or field. High School Officials tend to be very technical. High School Officials also tend to worry about exactly what the book says when it comes to mechanics and rules and do not think outside the box or cannot adjust to a newer concept. Officiating changes every year and if the book does not change I get into more debates about what that book says rather than what it takes to officiate the game we have in front of us. And this is just my opinion. This would not apply to everyone. Peace |
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And that's why the opening post of this thread was just complete doo-doo from the git-go imo. The statement made in the OP was inherently wrong. It's impossible to substantiate or prove- one way or another. You can say that Jeff Rutledge is this and Jurassic Referee is that, but you can't say that anybody else is exactly like Jeff Rutledge or Jurassic Referee(which is probably a boon to mankind in itself:) ). Jmo. |
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JMO, but I think your comments show the resentment that I spoke about in my first post in this thread. |
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I think you are generalizing. When I was in my first 5 years of officiating, there were some officials who worked higher levels that I really enjoyed. They were helpful and gracious. They mentored the less experienced officials and helped raise the talent level of our group. There were also some other guys who gave the impression that we were lucky to be able to be in their presence. They did not give anything back to our group. Now that I do a little college ball, I would like to think that I am one who gives back to our high school group and helps raise our talent level. We have guys who have given back HS games because they picked up a college game. That is an accepted practice around here. On the flip side, I gave back my last CC game of the year (with my assignor's blessing) so that I could go to one of our HS state tournaments this year. So to sum up all my babbling, it depends on the individual. |
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Of course officials are individuals, but most officials that work any college or try to work college have usually attended more camps and trainings. Quote:
Peace |
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I gave you a very possible scenario in which a mostly-HS official could get a college playoff game over a completely-college official, which shows that your original comments are not valid. How does that rest your case? It seems to me that you are so determined to hold your position on this issue that you can't even discuss other possibilities. Again, JMO, and I mean no offense, but that's how it seems to me. |
Scrapper1, I don't know what is wrong with BZ today, but he is refusing to see anything other than his own opinion.
I think there are some valid points in this thread, but I don't think it is possible to say one way or the other that one group dislikes the other. Rut, you know I've lived in various locations and I find your comments surprising. I talked with one of my partners (he currently works for the future NCAA supervisor and lives in Miss.) on Monday and another partner (he used to live in the St. Louis area) on Thursday about this - not the first times this discussion has come up. The perception by many, with some actual examples, is the Midwest is the easiest place to break into D1 in the country. Your post paints an opposite picture. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I do know guys who've lived in that region and one who moved there and advanced quickly. |
Why do I get the feeling that Joey Crawford just pulled a "Get In. Get Done. Get Out." on all of us?
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Mark Padgett use to pull this over on McGriffs every now and then just for giggles. |
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From that pool, one would also reasonably expect that those officials who can best do the job will be selected. Funny enough, often that means those officials who have excelled at even higher levels will be chosen. You can argue all day long about whether those officials work higher levels because they're better, or whether they got better by working higher levels. You can even posit that some are just lucky schmucks who really don't even deserve good HS varsity games. C'est la vie. |
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I intend to agree with you JRutledge. Working both h.s. and college, I agree before I I got hired I was a very technical h.s. official. By the book, mechanics, black and white on the rules. When I got hired i started to pull away. Not saying we are no it all's, but some of us at the college level have a little more info than h.s. guys. Being a rule know it all can get you in trouble if you don't how and when to apply the rule. Preventive officiating in h.s. game can save the game when it comes time to be technical. |
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I don't like newbies who take a pro official's name as his user name. :) |
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I am a college official, and I am a high school official. I really dislike myself sometimes. :p |
I'm also a college official and a high school official. I use my experience in college camps and games to make my high school games better. I think resentment comes from how information is relayed and accepted. Some college officials do not do a good job of passing along information without seemingly talking down to high school officials and many high school officials can't accept information when it is given.
Personally, I don't try to pass on as much information as I used to because the high school officials I come in contact with don't have the dedication to accept it. For them, it is all about the check. Many officials on this board are dedicated and still would rather do high school only so this isn't a good group to use when guaging this. |
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Peace |
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Peace |
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1. You don't know me. 2. I never said one word to you so. 3. I could give a rats behind if you don't like me. :) |
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That's what we call people that make nonsensical statements with no other intent than stirring up sh!t. Your blanket statement denigrating high school officials that started this thread is a good example of that. Until you prove otherwise, by maybe adding something positive to this forum in the way of rules, mechanics, officiating philosophy, etc, you will be regarded as nothing but a troll. Joey Crawford was the wrong name to pick as a <i>nom de net</i>, my friend. Not very apt, at all. |
Please show me where I said anything bad about HS officials????
I had no intent of offending anyone just seeing if this went on elsewhere around the country and obviously some agree with me that it does. Geeeez! |
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If was a joke, lighten up, Francis. |
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Location is very important for lower D-1. Typically, if someone retires or is dropped, the supervisor will look for a replacement in roughly the same geographical area. It is exceptionally more important for D-2 and D-3, where travel budgets are tighter. The rest of this discussion is funny. There are arrogant college officials, and jealous HS officials. If you can call the game, you can call the game. But the speed and pressures during a HS game compared to even low-level college games is the difference between Jr. High and Varsity. You have to go through the same vetting process in college, and it is every bit as tough and painful as when we all started in HS. |
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You have to rate teams individually, the same way that you rate officials. |
I normally stay out of grown up conversations. ;) However, this discussion identify for me that all of this is personality driven by the individual(s) involved.
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I'm also glad you've seen "good teams at that level that would beat most high school programs". Does that mean a good NBA team would beat most NCAA teams, too? :rolleyes: |
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Uh, actually the opposite may be true. We might be better off sending a good NBA team to the Olympics instead of an all-star team. However, a good NBA team will probably have someone from another country on it so it wouldn't be the complete team anyway.
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O well..... |
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