Why do High School officials dislike College officials so much?
 

I have seen this for about 2 years now and am so glad I got out of H.S. basketball.

Please tell me this happens elsewhere???

I'm confused as to the question. Could you please eloborate?

Disclaimer - this only applies to the areas where I've lived.

It is jealousy. What I will here often is high school officials don't want to put in the extra time, but if a college contract was dangled in front of them they would jump at it.
We have HS meetings and people always say something negative about college officials. This year I told this guy that when I go to a HS meeting, I'm a HS official. I don't think there should be any animosity, but there is.
Many officials can't take when someone learns something and brings it back, normally from a higher level. Other times you will hear people talk about the differences when they really don't know the differences. Just my opinion, from my experience.

I can't really speak to why there is hostility because I certainly don't feel it. Different folks look for different things out of officiating. I've worked with a bunch of folks in sub-varsity this year who are just fine staying there and have no aspirations to move higher.

I have my sights on HS varsity but no further because the extra travel/effort above and beyond HS varsity isn't worth it to me. It would be silly for me to dislike someone who decided that was their ultimate goal, however. I say more power to them, good luck, and I hope they have fun doing it.

People seem to get worked up over some very strange things but this one seems especially ridiculous.

I have heard from some high school officials that they get the impression that college officials look down on them. The high school officials sometimes feel that the college guys don't really have any regard or respect for officials who are "only" high school refs.

My main gripe is that college officials will routinely dump high school games if there's a makeup college game without regard to who they get as a replacement. It happened in a few games around here last night. My partner ended up working the JV and varsity games because of a shortage. Another game was going to use 3 officials and one of the guys bailed to take a college game.

Also, some college officials work just enough HS games to qualify for the post-season and then swoop in and expect every possible HS post-season assignment to go to them now that their college season is done. It's transparent.

That's one advantage of having an assignor, instead of getting your own games. When I have to turn back a HS game, I just call my HS assignor and he fills the slot. He's assured me that it's very easy to do so, now that everybody is online. But I still always offer to make calls if he wants me to.

It's understood here that college assignments take priority over high school assignments, even if it means that you turn back the high school game. There's no "retribution" (for lack of a better word) from the assignor.

I agree that some officials work the minimum number of games to be eligible for the tournament, but I have never seen an official expect to get "every" possible game. They expect their 2 or 3 games, just like any other selected official.

Seems like from your statement, you dislike high school officials.. but I digress.

Agree with the others, I see college officials that want the best of both worlds, and expect as much. Ticks me off to see college officials working a high school game using college mechanics.

So if you're doing college now Joey, just leave us mean-spirited, dis-liking, high school officials alone and just do college ball. :p

BTW, I know college officials that do high school and they respect and use NFHS mechanics. I like those guys a lot.:D

If college is the priority and you only work the minimum, why should you "expect" anything? The guys and gals that made HS their priority deserve those post-season games...thus the friction.

Priority, even the morning of the 2 contests? I don't get this. If I was a high school assignor, I'd like to work with my officials, but this absolute pecking order thing makes it sound like nobody has any respect for the high school game. I know a guy who was offered 3 varsity games recently, but already had 3 fresh/JV games scheduled (different assignors) and politely declined.


We work in different places. But...

I work 35 HS games and someone works 8 and we should get the same number of games?

EDITED to ADD: With some minor exceptions, I'm happy with my postseason schedule. This isn't personal whining, here, just an observation.

To get a proper answer, you need to define "college" officials. Do you mean a D1 college official? Or do you mean the guys that might be working D2, D3 or JUCO ball out in the middle of nowhere because no one else is available at the times that the games are played, the money isn't really worth it for the travel/time lost, and the fact that some officials would rather work a local high school rivalry game in front of a packed house as opposed to working a D3 game 100 miles away in front of 13 people.

Iow, imo there is no possible one-size-fits-all answer available to your question. I've seen high school officials who I thought were quite capable of doing D1 games. I seen college officials at all levels that I thought should pay to get in the games they were officiating. I also seen college officials at the lower college levels that were quite capable imo of handling D1 games if they were ever given a chance.

Every case is different, every official is different, and generalization is inherently wrong imho.

Wait a minute. That might be the case where you live or your surrounding area that is not the case here. Actually many of the D3 and D2 conferences around here are very hard to get into and in a few case D1 assignors. The league I work that is NAIA the supervisor assigned a D1 conference for years until last year. And the D2 in this area was assigned is currently the assignor for a D1 conference and will be the NCAA Supervisor starting next year. And almost every other conference around here is assigned by former D1 officials that have a lot of power in HS assigning. You do not just get a phone call and go work those games. Even many of the staff members of these conferences I referenced are D1 officials. I worked a JV game at the D3 level last night and one of the officials is a current D1 official and one of the officials is a former D1 and NBA Official. It is unbelievably hard to get a shot at the D3 level let alone NAIA around here.

Peace

I completely agree with Jurassic that doing JC ball is not for the money. And in every case, every official is different... You really can't generalize.

From one HS association, I have refs who think I don't deserve to be there because I'm relatively young to officiating (experience wise). From another association, I have refs who think highly of me now because I now work at the JUCO level.

I want to share one of my experiences with you guys....

I did a JC game this season that took me about 8+ hours and got paid only $115. Take $35 dollars our of the $115 for gas because round trip from work to gym and back home is about 260 miles. I make about $120 dollars doing two local varsity games that'll take me 3 hour at most and 5 minute of travel time.

So tip off is 6pm on a Friday night. Our JC association requires us to get there at least 1 hour before tip off. I assumed the drive will take about 2 hours without traffic. On Friday afternoon, you never know what the roads will be like. I left work at about 2:00 pm to give myself ample of time for travel. The drive took just about 3 hours. I got there right around 5:00. Game ended at about 7:45pm. After our post-game talk and shower, I left the gym at about 8:30PM. Got home at 10:15ish

The gym had about 30 fans and that was it. It was cold and empty. But JC college games will always take precedence over any hs games - despite of an 8+ hour trip.

Virtually all of our varsity officials fall into one of 3 categories:

1) they are a college official
2) working on being a college official
3) has no interest in being a college official, including those that have worked college and don't now for whatever reason -- travel, time, lack of interest, etc.

I don't get any hint of animosity between any of the groups, personally. If you can work, you can work, and most guys take notice of that fact alone. There's more issues concerning personality than there are with being or not being a college official.

I had a discussion with a long time full schedule D1 guy recently. He works 6 or 7 HS games a year and at the end of every season he gets calls begging him to take HS playoff games. He said he doesn't like to do HS playoffs because it's a no-win situation. If he does well they say he should do well, he's a D1 guy. If he doesn't they'll point and say look, the D1 guy f'ed it up. But that's the way it is, generally the assignors want the best people possible to work their games, it makes them look good.

Up to a point imo.....

I don't want to piss off the people that have bailed my azz out all season long right up to the playoffs. If they've done a good job for me, I <b>owe</b> them. And I don't want to lose them. If they can do the job.... maybe not quite as well as the D1 guy but still do the job.... then I'll use 'em.

That's the way I expect the system to run. Its fair and it offers both sides some latitude. The assignors get bailed out by certain guys and in turn they owe them. Assuming they "can" work the game, I would expect them to get first crack over me since they are owed one. But I can see some guys whining about this. Just because we are officials doesn't mean there are none in our ranks with coaches syndrome. You know they whiny, complaining type.

Same in our area. i watch alot of hoops so i run into the "top dogs" often. they are also the collge guys in our area. They have never been nothing but cool with me and I have never heard anyone complain about the playoff games and who gets them. Our Assoc. also does a good job of getting the up and comers into the mix.

Gee I'll bet that if you had a guy that worked 8 lower level college games and a full HS schedule get a college post season assignment over a guy that worked a full lower level college schedule that college guy would be busting a vein screaming bloody murder about it.

That is why there is friction, college officials just assume they are better officials and in many cases it just isn't true.

In a lot of cases they are young and have "the look" the assignor was looking for and they figured they could mold them into a good ref. But for every inexperienced "look" ref working college there are dozens of experienced HS officials that can call a better game.

I don't think that one can make the blanket statement that officials that only officiate high school basketball dislike college officials.

Officials of amateur contests can be divided into the following categories:

1) Officials that only officiate at the high school level and below.

2) Officials that officiate a mixed schedule of high school and college.

3) Officials that only officiate at the college level.

The percentage of H.S. and college games for a Group #2 official can vary from official to official.

It has been my experience that there is a small group of officials in both Groups #2 and #3, that think that they walk on water. These schmucks can give the rest of the members in those two groups a bad name.

I have also found that there is a small group of officials on Group #1 that resent officials who are in Groups #2 and #3 because they think that they should be officiating at the college level and they are not. These are the officials that do not know the rules or casebook plays, their mechanics are terrible and resent officials (Group #1, #2, and #3) who do know the rules and apply them correctly and use correct mechanics. These officials will always be with us and there is not much one can do about it.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe for you, but not for me. I'll work the HS rivalry game every day of the week and I'll be home 2 hours before you. Last night was an exception for me (traveling alone for over 100 miles). The college guys do it all the time and I'm not interested.

My game check tonight was $100 and I worked a 7:30PM game that ended at 8:42PM and we were showered and in the car before 9PM. In the bar before 9:40PM. Driving 8 hours? No thanks.

That depends on where you live. Not everyone travels that far or has to. You work in certain areas around here and you hardly have an hour drive. And if it is an hour drive it is not because of mileage.

And the last thing I am ever going to do is be in the bar after most games.

This is all about person preference and what you enjoy and why you officiate. I can tell you I do not do this for the money and could care less what I make when I officiate any game. If money was the gauge of my officiating I would not travel very far for the high school games I work.

I will say this, most college officials are better trained and better officials because they learn things that many HS officials do not get exposed to. That is not a basketball thing that is a sports officiating thing. There are things I mostly do not have to worry about when I have a college official working with me in any sport. True college officials usually attend more camps and more training before they ever step onto any floor or field. High School Officials tend to be very technical. High School Officials also tend to worry about exactly what the book says when it comes to mechanics and rules and do not think outside the box or cannot adjust to a newer concept. Officiating changes every year and if the book does not change I get into more debates about what that book says rather than what it takes to officiate the game we have in front of us.

And this is just my opinion. This would not apply to everyone.

Peace

Completely disagree. Every official is different, and you have to judge each individual official separately. You can't generalize and say "college officials are this" or "high school officials are that". There's just too many exceptions to the rule if you try to do something like that. I've seen many high school officials that fit into your generalization of college officials above, and I've also seen many college officials that don't come close to fitting your college criteria. The same goes for the "technical" and "unable to think outside the box" statements that you made about high school officials.

And that's why the opening post of this thread was just complete doo-doo from the git-go imo. The statement made in the OP was inherently wrong. It's impossible to substantiate or prove- one way or another. You can say that Jeff Rutledge is this and Jurassic Referee is that, but you can't say that anybody else is exactly like Jeff Rutledge or Jurassic Referee(which is probably a boon to mankind in itself:) ).

Jmo.

Why would you bet on this? That is a HUGE assumption. If the "college" guy misses the playoffs, you can bet there's a reason -- probably connected to his full "lower level" schedule. If the "HS" guy gets a college post-season assignment, you can bet there's a reason -- he's a good official who only has college availability on weekends, perhaps. Your bias against "college" officials is showing in your assumption here.

Again, a HUGE assumption. Not ALL college officials assume that they're better than ALL high school officials. Again, this is just a biased comment. You can't have met enough "college" officials with this attitude to apply it to a few thousand people nationwide.

JMO, but I think your comments show the resentment that I spoke about in my first post in this thread.

I think you are generalizing.

When I was in my first 5 years of officiating, there were some officials who worked higher levels that I really enjoyed. They were helpful and gracious. They mentored the less experienced officials and helped raise the talent level of our group.

There were also some other guys who gave the impression that we were lucky to be able to be in their presence. They did not give anything back to our group.

Now that I do a little college ball, I would like to think that I am one who gives back to our high school group and helps raise our talent level.

We have guys who have given back HS games because they picked up a college game. That is an accepted practice around here. On the flip side, I gave back my last CC game of the year (with my assignor's blessing) so that I could go to one of our HS state tournaments this year.

So to sum up all my babbling, it depends on the individual.

The nature of is discussion is a very general on at its core. And I cannot talk about every official that I have ever worked with and every official you have worked with. But just like a political race, there are some things I can reasonably say about the Democrats vs. the Republicans. Of course there are exceptions to every characterization, but there are some things you can generalize that are accurate about each party. This comparison is no different. I am also speaking from my personal experiences and what I have seen. And college officials that I have worked with hardly ever are as ridged or unaware of many different concepts and tend to be more flexible. And I can tell by officials that have college experience by the way certain individuals talk on this site. And usually it is confirmed at a later date.

Of course officials are individuals, but most officials that work any college or try to work college have usually attended more camps and trainings.

The question is a fair one and often discussed outside of this board. And I hear all the time about a rift between people that work college ball and those who only work high school when I talk to officials at a social or at a meeting. And there are college officials that act like they know more than high school officials and vise versa. Usually it involves post season assignments that many perceive the college officials are unfairly taking high school post season games. In my state the only requirement is to work 10 varsity games at each level (Girl's, Boy's, Class 1A-2A and Class 3A-4A). And you always hear these stories that some guy only worked 2 high school varsity games and some guy that had 60 varsity games is passed over. I have found that claim is usually not true and often exaggerated. Even people in my area that work a lot of college ball usually work a lot of high school as well. This is mainly because they would not work very much without the high school games. And unless you are a big time college officials, chances are working 10 college games is the most you will get. And that is a little much for many guys or gals I have come in contact with.

Peace

I rest my case.:rolleyes:

Well, then you have a terrible case. Your argument assumes that college officials all think that they're better than all high school officials; and you use that assumption to prove that college officials think they're better than high school officials. That's a lousy case.

I gave you a very possible scenario in which a mostly-HS official could get a college playoff game over a completely-college official, which shows that your original comments are not valid. How does that rest your case?

It seems to me that you are so determined to hold your position on this issue that you can't even discuss other possibilities. Again, JMO, and I mean no offense, but that's how it seems to me.

Scrapper1, I don't know what is wrong with BZ today, but he is refusing to see anything other than his own opinion.

I think there are some valid points in this thread, but I don't think it is possible to say one way or the other that one group dislikes the other.

Rut, you know I've lived in various locations and I find your comments surprising. I talked with one of my partners (he currently works for the future NCAA supervisor and lives in Miss.) on Monday and another partner (he used to live in the St. Louis area) on Thursday about this - not the first times this discussion has come up. The perception by many, with some actual examples, is the Midwest is the easiest place to break into D1 in the country. Your post paints an opposite picture. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I do know guys who've lived in that region and one who moved there and advanced quickly.

Why do I get the feeling that Joey Crawford just pulled a "Get In. Get Done. Get Out." on all of us?

Because they did the work that was required to be eligible for the post-season.

And nobody's saying that they shouldn't work the post-season. I don't understand why that generates friction. Everybody who meets the state's requirements for eligibility should get consideration for post-season games. Right? I mean, how can anybody argue against that? :confused:

Joey is a troll. And not a very good one either.

Mark Padgett use to pull this over on McGriffs every now and then just for giggles.

Thats comical.

Like this?

http://www.jeffhaynie.com/Fant/BadTroll_thumb.jpg

Nice Post. I'm too in the same boat as you. ON my 3rd season of D3 and JC. Some hate you others still like you in the association. Our age is one thing because were young and the other is we have been given the opportunity some others who are older than us have tried hard to get to, but didnt. I'm the same way Marco. You know I will drive anywhere to work a college game and give back the h.s. game. Our assignor doesnt mind. He always reminds us for those who work College and need to give back an h.s. game he doesnt have a problem as long as we give him time in advance. Damn Marco 260 miles!!! I went 320 last year!!! LOL!!!

Exactly. There are minimum requirements established to be eligible for considersation. If you meet the requirements, you should "expect" to be given consideration. Along with every other person who met the requirements.

From that pool, one would also reasonably expect that those officials who can best do the job will be selected. Funny enough, often that means those officials who have excelled at even higher levels will be chosen.

You can argue all day long about whether those officials work higher levels because they're better, or whether they got better by working higher levels. You can even posit that some are just lucky schmucks who really don't even deserve good HS varsity games. C'est la vie.

I intend to agree with you JRutledge. Working both h.s. and college, I agree before I I got hired I was a very technical h.s. official. By the book, mechanics, black and white on the rules. When I got hired i started to pull away. Not saying we are no it all's, but some of us at the college level have a little more info than h.s. guys. Being a rule know it all can get you in trouble if you don't how and when to apply the rule. Preventive officiating in h.s. game can save the game when it comes time to be technical.

I like college officials.

I don't like newbies who take a pro official's name as his user name. :)

No Hoey (or whatever) may be on to something.

I am a college official, and I am a high school official. I really dislike myself sometimes. :p

I'm also a college official and a high school official. I use my experience in college camps and games to make my high school games better. I think resentment comes from how information is relayed and accepted. Some college officials do not do a good job of passing along information without seemingly talking down to high school officials and many high school officials can't accept information when it is given.
Personally, I don't try to pass on as much information as I used to because the high school officials I come in contact with don't have the dedication to accept it. For them, it is all about the check. Many officials on this board are dedicated and still would rather do high school only so this isn't a good group to use when guaging this.

First of all my comments were not about the entire Midwest. I cannot speak for the entire Midwest. Conference assignments are made based on everything from where you live to where the conference is located. And in order to work D1 in where I live, it is hard to get to that level if you are not working D2 and D3. And when the future NCAA Supervisor says, "I do not need any Chicago guys (for his D2 conference) but if you live in Kansas City, Missouri, he can use that is not true across all parts of the Midwest. Also I live in the Chicago area so I am not judged by everyone in the Midwest, I am judged by other officials in this area.

Peace

So your comments were about the Chicago area - fair enough.

I cannot speak about any other area I do not live. And with supervisors completely changing around here, I seriously doubt it is going to be "easy" to get hired. There might be more games around here to work, but not an easy road by any stretch of the imagination.

Peace

1. You don't know me.
2. I never said one word to you so.
3. I could give a rats behind if you don't like me.

:)

Naw, it's not really that funny.

That's what we call people that make nonsensical statements with no other intent than stirring up sh!t. Your blanket statement denigrating high school officials that started this thread is a good example of that.

Until you prove otherwise, by maybe adding something positive to this forum in the way of rules, mechanics, officiating philosophy, etc, you will be regarded as nothing but a troll.

Joey Crawford was the wrong name to pick as a <i>nom de net</i>, my friend. Not very apt, at all.

Please show me where I said anything bad about HS officials????

I had no intent of offending anyone just seeing if this went on elsewhere around the country and obviously some agree with me that it does.


Geeeez!

Got news for ya, it's a discussion board. I can make fun of you whether I know you, whether you've addressed me, or whether you're a rat's @$$ or not. ;)

If was a joke, lighten up, Francis.

My point exactly!

As someone who has worked on the West and East Coasts, you are correct, Jeff. It is hard to make D-1 on the West Coast. Not many schools and conferences at all NCAA and JC levels.

Location is very important for lower D-1. Typically, if someone retires or is dropped, the supervisor will look for a replacement in roughly the same geographical area. It is exceptionally more important for D-2 and D-3, where travel budgets are tighter.

The rest of this discussion is funny. There are arrogant college officials, and jealous HS officials. If you can call the game, you can call the game. But the speed and pressures during a HS game compared to even low-level college games is the difference between Jr. High and Varsity. You have to go through the same vetting process in college, and it is every bit as tough and painful as when we all started in HS.

You don't get out much do you? That's another generalization that's a complete load of doo-doo imo. I've seen many D3 and JUCO teams that would get killed by any good high school program. I've also seen good teams at that level that would beat most high school programs.

You have to rate teams individually, the same way that you rate officials.

I normally stay out of grown up conversations. ;) However, this discussion identify for me that all of this is personality driven by the individual(s) involved.

High school teams are not even close to college teams. A team like St. Anthony or St. Pat's? They might be able to compete with a very weak non-scholly JC or D-3 team, but a D-1 JC or any other scholarship team would crush any high school team in the country. Any other high schools have no chance. The age and physical maturity difference is enormous.

I'm also glad you've seen "good teams at that level that would beat most high school programs". Does that mean a good NBA team would beat most NCAA teams, too? :rolleyes:

A good NBA team can't beat Italy,Spain, Argentina, Greece, Puerto Rico, etc., etc.:D

Amen to that!

Uh, actually the opposite may be true. We might be better off sending a good NBA team to the Olympics instead of an all-star team. However, a good NBA team will probably have someone from another country on it so it wouldn't be the complete team anyway.

Touche! :D

Or in the case of some teams "many someones."

I agree with you and do the same as you when I'm on a high school game. I have been in that position when information i learned is passed to someone who just does high school. Even in a game, they give you that look when you pass on something or tell them something, like going over to help with an o.b. call and they don't want to change it. I just want to get the play right and work the best game possible. Unfortunately because of my age most guys probably think I'm a young officials who thinks I'm the **** and trying to big time them because I work a higher level they never got to.
O well.....