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Mark Padgett Tue Feb 05, 2008 02:49pm
This almost happened
 
NF rules. A1 in back court throws ball toward front court. It hits an official who is standing in front court and rebounds back to A1 who grabs it while still in the back court. Is this a violation?

Remember the four elements needed for a back court violation:
1. There must be team control
2. The ball must have achieved front court status
3. The team in team control must be the last to touch the ball after it has achieved front court status
4. That same team must be first to touch the ball after it has reentered the back court

No doubt about 1 and 2. But does a single touch by A1 when he catches the rebounded ball in the back court satisfy both 3 and 4 at the same time? That is, can a single touch count for two elements simultaneously?

This almost happened in a game this weekend, but the ball caromed off the official into the back court and went OOB with A1 leaping for it.

chartrusepengui Tue Feb 05, 2008 02:57pm
why not?

Gimlet25id Tue Feb 05, 2008 03:04pm
T/C on the pass. Hits official in the F/C which established T/C F/C status of the ball. If A touches-violation.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 05, 2008 03:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
NF rules. A1 in back court throws ball toward front court. It hits an official who is standing in front court and rebounds back to A1 who grabs it while still in the back court. Is this a violation?

Remember the four elements needed for a back court violation:
1. There must be team control
2. The ball must have achieved front court status
3. The team in team control must be the last to touch the ball after it has achieved front court status
4. That same team must be first to touch the ball after it has reentered the back court

No doubt about 1 and 2. But does a single touch by A1 when he catches the rebounded ball in the back court satisfy both 3 and 4 at the same time? That is, can a single touch count for two elements simultaneously?

This almost happened in a game this weekend, but the ball caromed off the official into the back court and went OOB with A1 leaping for it.
Items three is wrong, and should be:

3. Team A last to touch before the ball goes to BC

There's a specific case play just like yours in which it's a violation.

crazy voyager Tue Feb 05, 2008 03:37pm
It is under fiba rules

YooperRef Tue Feb 05, 2008 03:56pm
What if ??
 
SO the OP is a violation. What if the official has one foot in the F/C and one in the B/C? Off the top of my head I'm thinking no violation is this case.

M&M Guy Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by YooperRef
SO the OP is a violation. What if the official has one foot in the F/C and one in the B/C? Off the top of my head I'm thinking no violation is this case.
What is the status of an official with one foot in the front court, and one in the back court?

What is the status of player standing exactly the same way?

YooperRef Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:21pm
Both player and official would have B/C status so no violation.

M&M Guy Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by YooperRef
Both player and official would have B/C status so no violation.
Off the top of my head, you would be correct.

This is where I offer you the picture of the cookie, and say, "Good job!". But I was hungry this afternoon and already ate the cookie. Sorry.

YooperRef Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:29pm
Obviously an M&M cookie.

M&M Guy Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:31pm
Obviously. :D

inigo montoya Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:42pm
Is there rule support for treating the official's location on the court (that is, backcourt vs. frontcourt) the same as a player's?

M&M Guy Tue Feb 05, 2008 04:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by inigo montoya
Is there rule support for treating the official's location on the court (that is, backcourt vs. frontcourt) the same as a player's?
I've used 4-35-1(b) and 4-35-2: The location of a player <font color=red>or nonplayer</font color> is determined by where the player is touching the floor as far as being in the frontcourt or backcourt.

crazy voyager Wed Feb 06, 2008 09:01am
What if a player with one feet in the front and one in the bc passes to a player standing the same way (test question)?
What if it's a throw in with the player doing the throw-in standing one fott in Back one in Front- court and he passes to a player standing the same way(answer here is diffrent in NCAA compared to FIBA due to team control definition)?

SmokeEater Wed Feb 06, 2008 09:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
What if a player with one feet in the front and one in the bc passes to a player standing the same way (test question)?
What if it's a throw in with the player doing the throw-in standing one fott in Back one in Front- court and he passes to a player standing the same way(answer here is diffrent in NCAA compared to FIBA due to team control definition)?
For FIBA this would depend on the players next movement. Lift the frontcourt foot and we have a violation, lift the backcourt foot and proceed into frontcourt then play on.

Texas Aggie Wed Feb 06, 2008 01:58pm
Don't have the current casebook, but looking at the '05-06 one, which has a play where the scenario is the same except the ball hits the opponent rather than an official. The casebook play says that's legal, so how is hitting the official different since Team A was not the last to touch the ball in the front court?

bob jenkins Wed Feb 06, 2008 02:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie
Don't have the current casebook, but looking at the '05-06 one, which has a play where the scenario is the same except the ball hits the opponent rather than an official. The casebook play says that's legal, so how is hitting the official different since Team A was not the last to touch the ball in the front court?
Because Team A need not touch the ball in the FC.

See 4.4.4 (2006-2007 reference "Ball Touches An Official")

crazy voyager Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
For FIBA this would depend on the players next movement. Lift the frontcourt foot and we have a violation, lift the backcourt foot and proceed into frontcourt then play on.
Not according to my test
If a player is located in both Back and Frontcourt and passes to a teammate standing the same way that is a backcourt violation...
Think of it, when do you get FC status? That is when you move into the frontcourt in some way (one foot, the ball, your hand, something).
Once you are in the FC are you allowed to go back? No
when do you return? When you in any way contact the B/C you are in the B/C

So if you have one foot in the frontcourt, you're in the F/C
If you then passes somebody who has one foot in the B/C, the ball has been returned to the B/C
That's a violation
Quote:
30.1.1 The ball goes into a team's backcourt when:
• It touches the backcourt.
• It touches a player or an official who has part of his body in contact with the backcourt.
30.1.2 The ball has been illegally returned to the backcourt when a player of the team in control of the live ball is:
• The last to touch the ball in his frontcourt, after which that player or a team-mate is the first to touch the ball in the backcourt.
• The last to touch the ball in his backcourt, after which the ball touches the frontcourt and then is first touched by that player or team-mate in the backcourt.
This restriction applies to all situations in a team's frontcourt, including throw-ins.
So that is a violation
That also means that if you are in the B/C, throws the ball of the backboard (I have one friend who has seen this happen! No idea what the player was thinking but still) and then gets it back still in the B/C, that is a violation
You're in the B/C
The ball goes in the F/C (since it touches something in the F/C, the backboard)
Then it returns to the B/C
You are still in control.
Violation

SmokeEater Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
Not according to my test
If a player is located in both Back and Frontcourt and passes to a teammate standing the same way that is a backcourt violation...
Think of it, when do you get FC status? That is when you move into the frontcourt in some way (one foot, the ball, your hand, something).
Once you are in the FC are you allowed to go back? No
when do you return? When you in any way contact the B/C you are in the B/C agree

So if you have one foot in the frontcourt, you're in the F/C
If you then passes somebody who has one foot in the B/C, the ball has been returned to the B/C
That's a violation agree partially

So that is a violation
That also means that if you are in the B/C, throws the ball of the backboard (I have one friend who has seen this happen! No idea what the player was thinking but still) and then gets it back still in the B/C, that is a violation
You're in the B/C
The ball goes in the F/C (since it touches something in the F/C, the backboard)
Then it returns to the B/C
You are still in control.
Violation this was never in question, also agree.
OK I see what you are saying and agree partially. The statement made about standing straddling the center line is incorrect as to postition status. It is allowable for a player who is already standing across the line to receive a pass. You never have proven that F/C staus has been attained yet. With both feet on the floor and one in each court you do not yet have the F/C status when you receive the ball. So that is why I said it would depend on the next movement. I can see how the if the next pass was to another teammate standing the same way both in front and back court then it could be a violation.

crazy voyager Thu Feb 07, 2008 03:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater
OK I see what you are saying and agree partially. The statement made about standing straddling the center line is incorrect as to postition status. It is allowable for a player who is already standing across the line to receive a pass. You never have proven that F/C staus has been attained yet. With both feet on the floor and one in each court you do not yet have the F/C status when you receive the ball. So that is why I said it would depend on the next movement. I can see how the if the next pass was to another teammate standing the same way both in front and back court then it could be a violation.
The red part is what I don't agree with
If you have contact with the F/C you are in the F/C
Just the same thing as if you are in the F/C and just touch the B/C you are in the B/C
Or if you just touch OOB then you are OOB
So if you have one feet in both places you will essentially be in both places, how ever being in both places doesn't mean you can pass the ball back to the B/C, becuse you are still partially in the F/C
I'm not sure how to explain it really...

SmokeEater Thu Feb 07, 2008 03:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
The red part is what I don't agree with
So if you have one feet in both places you will essentially be in both places, how ever being in both places doesn't mean you can pass the ball back to the B/C, becuse you are still partially in the F/C
I'm not sure how to explain it really...

This is true Crazy. You are missing my point that it is legal to be touching both areas when you receive the initial pass. It is the NEXT action that will determine the violation or not. We are not that far apart on this one.:)

just another ref Thu Feb 07, 2008 03:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
you are still partially in the F/C

You can't be "partially in the F/C, just like you can't be partially out of bounds.
If anything is touching the backcourt, you have backcourt status.

SmokeEater Thu Feb 07, 2008 03:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
You can't be "partially in the F/C, just like you can't be partially out of bounds.
If anything is touching the backcourt, you have backcourt status.
That would be the interp for NCAA or NFHS. In FIBA as soon as any part touches in the F/C then technically you have attained F/C status.

In the Sit we are talking about the player receives the pass while touching both sides of the center line. (legal in all rules) However what is done next determines if they violate in FIBA.

This is how it was explained to me this year. As we have just converted to FIBA rules it was important that we understand how to handle this exact situation. We did not cover what if the player who received the pass, then made another pass to a teammate who was in the same stance. I have sent a clarification to our National Interpreter. We shall see what they say.

crazy voyager Fri Feb 08, 2008 08:05am
ah, we might have interpeted it diffrently then. I meant it like this
A player is standing with the ball straddling the middle-line
(s)he then passes to a player who is also straddling the line.

off course the first pass is legal. But passing to a player standing the same way is a violation


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