Where is your focus?
 

2 person crew. You're the Trail and a shot goes up from the Lead's PCA. Do you stay w/ the flight of the ball the whole time or do you watch for action back side, watch the ball as soon as it gets around the rim to make sure of no GT/BI and it doesn't hit any support and then go back to focusing on the back side rebounders? I'm curious as to how everyone handles this.

I'm watching backside rebounding activity and simply maintaining an awareness of the flight of the ball and anyone who may have the ability to play above the rim.

You can't focus solely on the flight of the ball every time there's a shot from L, or you'll miss all the fun. :D

Right eye on the ball, left eye on the players.

Reverse if on the other side of the court.

My first responsibility is the flight of the ball. So I follow the ball to make sure it doesn't hit a support and to watch for basket interference or goaltending -- also to see if it actually goes in. I may have to signal a successful 3-point goal.

Once that stuff is done, then I'll switch to rebounding action on my side of the basket.

Marty Feldman would be so proud! :)

My focus would be on trying to figure out why I'm working a 2-man game. :D

I would reverse that.

The Lead is already watching the rebounding action. I want to be sure the ball doesn't hit something overhead. The Lead can handle rebounding for an extra second or two.

This must be a reply to Bob's post, because it makes no sense regarding what scrappy-doo wrote.

I'm looking at it all baby! :cool: :D

Actually, since I am trail, I have ball flight and I'm probably peeking at action on rebounding as well once I'm am certain we are not going to hit any support wires from up above.

This actually came up during our pre-season scrimmages and our more senior folks advised us to not watch the ball (they called it being a fan instead of an official). I agree that you can't completely block out the path of the ball for the reasons already stated (e.g., hits a support wire, goes over the backboard, etc.), but we only work 2-man in sub-varsity here. The chance of there being an above-the-rim play or something funky happening with the ball/support is minimal so it's easier to concentrate on post play. I've taken this approach been able to effectively watch the post play so far this season.

Of course I'm working a 7th grade game tonight and will probably have something happen with the ball and a basket support. Thank goodness for pre-game meetings!

Seventh Graders Can't Jump
 

Be sure to watch for goaltending and basketball interference, especially if it's a girls game.

Scrapper... going to have to diasagree

If the shot is from lead's corner, lead may stay with the shooter.
Lead normally referees strong-side rebounding
Trail has perimeter and weakside rebounding and has to be able to pick it up correctly. If trail is not refereeing this correctly you can get a lot of cheap and rough stuff.

You have to have the angles and position to see the shot and still focus on the rebounding... If I am going to make a mistake it is the one that grazes an upright

The GT/BI are actually pretty easy if you ref the defense.... The behind the backboard is obvious...

:confused:

MTD,Sr.

And that surprises you? :rolleyes:

I don't. Scrappy rulez.

Here's what scrappy said

Here are his priorities:

1. Watch the flight of the ball
2. Once the ball is no longer in flight watch rebounding action

How do we reverse priorities here? Makes zero sense.
You simply cannot reverse this because #1 happens BEFORE #2.

I don't think we should even get into the #1 and #2 discussion that's about to happen! :-)

I disagree, except on shots close to the basket. If the shot is coming from 15', I'm looking at players working for position first. I'm going to officiate the defense and as the shot nears the bucket be looking for anyone getting up around the rim.

Hitting the support/going over the backboard is going to become obvious when it happens.

So, I agree that I reverse the priorities (rebounding, then flight of ball), and then return to rebounding action.

Gotta love the little witch hunt, but seriously, what is the likelihood of the ball hitting a support, going over the backboard, BI or GT compared to rebounding contact which may be illegal?

You might see a violation 1 every 50 shots...100 shots...200 shots.

You will see rebounding contact on a shot 50 out of 50 shots...100 shots...200 shots.

You guys don't care for Nevada, we get it, but you are doing everyone that reads the forum a disservice when you disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, when in fact, he's 100% correct in the priorities in this instance.

I do not think you can speak for me, but I see a lot of play above or near the rim. And yes BI and GT is an issue in many of my games. It might not be a big factor, but it is a factor more often than not. A least more than the odds you gave. And in some cases rebounding contact is not an issue at all.

I think we have a right to disagree with him when people feel he is not correct or he does not follow the ideals of officiating that we might follow. If you have not noticed he is one the opposite opinions of many veterans here. I would hope the same goes for anyone that says something they do not agree with. I also think some were making light of the fact that you really have to watch both things. All things in officiating are not one or the other.

Peace

There is rebounding action on nearly every shot I don't care where you are or what level you work there is not a potential BI/GT on nearly every shot.

So disagree with the odds all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the potential for illegal contact during rebounding action far outweighs the potential for a ball violation.

This is even more of an issue with only two officials, where making decisions on priorities is even greater.

That said, of course you can't tunnel vision on either, but you do need to put more focus on rebounding action with ball flight getting a secondary look.

Geeze, that's some terrible shooting you get to see in your area.

Can you have either of these things without the player? So how can you call a GT or BI without the actions of a player being watched?

Once again that is your opinion. And because I only work 3 Person games, I would not consider this an either/or situation. In many cases I might not watch the ball at all. Then again that is me.

You are probably right, but I still feel I can watch both rather equally. And if they want that play covered better, hire a 3rd official and they will be all over that play.

Again I take the issue with the term "need" in your sentence. And I have heard a lot more complaining over when the ball hits the support or when there is a basket that counts that should not over contact during a rebound. Then again, that is my experience. That is why I disagree with what is more important.

Peace

Dan, do you not agree that there is generally "rebounding action" on every shot, regardless of whether a rebound actually happens?

We've gotten away from the original question and instead are having silly squabbles. My main point was that watching the flight of the ball is not what I'm going to be doing. I'm going to be watching the players, first and foremost. This will allow me to watch for BI and GT. I'll also be aware of the ball so I can get it hitting a support or going over the backboard.

So I guess players don't fight for position and box out on made shots around your area, huh?:rolleyes:

Better question is whether there is rebounding action I might care about on every shot.

The answer simply is that it depends. But if the ball goes in "rebounding action' generally amounts to heads up, legs flexed, establishing position. The real rebounding action comes when the ball misses.

But if I'm T in a 2 man game (not doing much of that anymore but I've done my share) I'm watching (my priority is) the flight of the ball on the release, unless the shot comes out of my area then I'm watching (my priority is) to make sure the shooter doesn't get mugged. Then I'm watching (my priority is) the flight of the ball. Then off the miss I'm watching (my priority is) the rebounding. And in there somewhere I'm checking to see that the shot clock got handled properly if it applies.

Pretty simple. My 'priority' depends on where in the sequence I am. The sequence doesn't change very often.

You might get away with that at the JV level and in womens ball. When the game is being played above the rim, good luck to you. It <b>will</b> come back to bite you.

Jmho.

Because you happen to agree with him, that makes him 100% correct?

Naw, don't think so.

JR, do you advocate watching the ball from the time it is released on a try until it is either clearly made or clearly missed, then?

I just can't agree with that. I watch the players - including those who may be able to commit goaltending, and as the shot approaches the rim I then watch the basket/ball for BI. But I always get a fix on where the players are and what they're doing as the shot goes up. It let's me have a much better idea of what's happening on rebounding action if the shot is missed.

I advocate the sequence that DanRef wrote. As trail, I've got my priorities. My partner has his. My partner's priority is the players in his area under the hoop. I trust him to do <b>his</b> job while I'm doing mine.

I was thinking the same thing. But people get so sensitive around here about Women's ball or not working varsity, I thought I would pass. I am glad you said it first. :D

Peace

I appreciate the responses. This is an area I'm still learning, as I've just recently begun officiating games with a lot of play above the rim. You've given me a lot to think about.

In reality, this all happens very quickly, and in a 2-man game as described it's impossible to see everything. I may try your sequence (as described by Dan) next time I've got a 2-man game to see how it goes.

I totally respect your opinion but keep coming back to the L having the shooter and his landing while T is watching the flight of the ball, it seems there are a lot of players with no eyes on them...

Random thoughts.....

There might be players with no eyes on them, but are they really gaining any kind of an advantage that early in the play sequence?

As trail, you can get the flight of the ball while still picking up major illegal contact underneath in your field of vision. Those kind of plays stand out. It's not a case of having tunnel vision and concentrating <b>only</b> on the ball.

The L can shift his focus back underneath as soon as the shooter lands. In that case, the ball is usually not to the rim yet anyway and the jostling for position underneath is just getting started. In most rebounding action, contact that causes a disadvantage usually occurs when a shot is missed. If the shot is made, any contact is usually incidental anyway. And if somebody along the way wants to move an opponent 3 or 4 feet, it's usually tough to miss something as clear as that.

If you miss some contact underneath before the ball hits the ring, in my experience that contact usually hasn't given anyone any kind of a major advantage. If you miss BI/GT though while you're looking at contact that might not mean anything, you sureasheck are giving someone a major advantage.

I think that most fouls underneath usually occur <b>after</b> the shot is missed. And after the shot is missed, we now have 2 sets of eyes on the action looking for those fouls.

JMO.

There is a reason there are 2-Person games and 3-Person games. It might not seem fair, but in a 2-Person game you have to focus on more things at once. You really cannot take an either/or attitude or you are going to miss a lot of things. There is just too much for you to watch.

Peace

Excellent points. I wouldn't have thought to say it that way, but you are absolutely right about the advantage usually coming after the shot is missed.

I think I also agree with nevada....

You watch the players first.... IMO.

I think part of the problem in 2 man - is that the trail tends to position self too low - I've seen them position like C in 3 person. In that position - everything is larger and it is difficult to look through play and see everything he is supposed to. By moving back a step or two or three - angles change and it is far easier to see both backside rebounding action as well as the basket and ball in flight.

I've called more than a couple fouls this year where B4, in a less than desireable position, grabs the shoulder of A4 to pull him back such that B4 is now in front. Most of the time, this has occurred while the shot is in the air.

In one case when I called the foul on B4, the coach, having picked up on the play only once the shot missed, asked how he could have fouled since he was in front. Once I told him that the foul was before the shot got to the rim and B4 was ONLY in front because of the foul (describing it as above), he nodded and sat down.

Players start jockeying for rebounding position as the shot is released. The action starts then. You have to watch that and keep the flight of the ball within your site at the same time (but not necessarily in focus), if you sense a possibility of above the rim play, then shift focus to cover that. You can tell when a player jumps up to make a play.

The situation under discussion highlights one of the problems with the 2-man system and is a big reason why 3-man is becoming the norm.

There are three things to watch, but only two officials to observe them.
a. shooter returning safely to the floor
b. flight of the ball
c. players battling for rebounding position

All of these are important and we should strive to cover them all, but in reality we have to sacrifice something, so clearly we have to prioritze. Others are obviously free to disagree, but if I'm going to miss something with one of these it is going to be with the flight of the ball. I know that all the fans are focused on the ball and likely so are the coaches, so if I do miss something there I'm going to take grief, but I can accept that given the trade off.

The ball isn't going to hurt anyone. A defender charging out at a shooter could and I have no desire to explain to a coach that I was busy watching the ball when his player attempting to rebound underneath got an elbow to the chin that knocked his teeth out. If I miss that, then I'm going to have even more trouble than if I miss BI or GT.

Player safety is #1. Violations, points, and the lines on the court are secondary to that concern. Therefore, I choose to check the rebounding action for rough play first, then pick up the flight of the ball. Hence my original comment to reverse what the other poster wrote.

Good argument to trot out at this point. In fact, I'm so convinced that from now on my primary focus will be on the floor, to make sure each player's shoe remains tied. I think it should be yours too. And not just in our primary coverage, but all over the court. Just as you recommend.

btw... somebody emailed me recently saying I suck at sarcasm, because he can't always tell when I'm being sarcastic. This post is sarcastic, in case you can't tell.

I've had a couple this year that were like this too. Only in my case, the player from behind simply shoved the guy in front under the backboard and held him off with a stiff arm. This was also before the shot got to the rim.

Good sarcasm is hard to tell when people are serious or not.

Peace

Yeah. I think he was being sarcastic btw...couldn't tell.

:)

I find this funny cause many experienced refs will say to step up the the ft line extended to get a closer view when things break down into the lane and walk back out when play opens up outside.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I'm going to be focusing on which players have four fouls so that I can make sure the fifth one is a good one. :D

There are at least 1-2 fouls a game where I live that are rebounding fouls that occur while the shot is in the air.

Those are the most important to get since they usually open up the fouler for a rebound and put-back.

Well, thanks for nothing. Last night, I had a 2-man boys game. I was thinking, "Maybe those guys are onto something. Maybe I should try to change the way I do things. Tonight, I'll try picking up the rebounding earlier and just check the ball if there's a kid around the rim."

So mid-second-quarter, shot goes up, I pick up the weak-side rebounding as Trail and. . . where's the ball?!?! It was a high rebound around the top of the backboard and I had to guess as to whether it had hit a support.

15 years my way, no problems. One game your way, I have to guess. Screw that. :mad:

Yeahbut at least you knew everyone's shoe laces were tied...that's the important thing.

It's good that you specified that you were attempting to be sarcastic because otherwise I would have thought that you were just being a cranky, old guy. :D

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/roflmao.gif

Thanks, I needed a good laugh this morning. :)

Cranky yes, old no... btw you might want to check those shoe laces...

;)

I just noticed your listed location, and it's funny! :)

So exactly how far South do you have to travel to visit Jurassic? ;)

Not far at all....which personally is kinda reassuring.

No shoelace-checkers allowed down here.

I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. I can assure that I was not amused last night.

It's all about you, aint it?

:rolleyes:

Only when I'm the R! :D

R, eh?

Mr. Big Time.

:p

Hey, just think of how it will look on the films.

You can watch yourself missing the ball hitting a support or maybe an obvious BI/GT versus <b>maybe</b> missing a judgment call foul(which your partner might have got anyway because it was in his area).....a foul btw which may or may not have given anyone an advantage, depending on whether the ball went in or where the rebound went.

You can't watch everything. It's a matter of priorities imo.

...or maybe his partner had the foul, looked at him and asked "did it go in?"

Not very good when the only possible response is "did what go in?"

Coulda said "I don't know but all the shoelaces were tied."

Yup. And after 5 pages of discussion and my personal experience last night, I'm convinced more than ever that my response in post #4 of this thread is exactly correct.

Nah, you're just slow. You didn't switch to the ball fast enough after observing the players. ;)

Oh.

You mean he had his priority reversed.

Good point.

Nobody said watch only the players...just watch them mostly and glance at the ball at the points where an issue might occur. There will be no BI/GT if no players jump up near the rim. If you're watching the players for rebounding, yoiu'll know when they jump and from where they jump....and thats about all you need to know if a contact with the ball is GT. Time the flight of the ball and look up when it gets to the rim to see it go in or bounce up high enough to matter. If neither, return to players.

How about just watch the ball, since that's your primary coverage and trust your partner to watch the players, since that's his/her primary coverage?

Last night has convinced me that anybody who says otherwise is simply overthinking. The title of the thread is "where is your focus?" The trail's focus is the flight of the ball. The lead's focus is the rebounding players.

Ding, ding. This is the winner. There's no reason to watch the full flight of the ball. I've studied parabolas, so I know how the ball will fly.

Besides, if I'm watching the flight of the ball all the way, who's taking the shooter all the way to the ground?

So watch the shooter, look at the rebounding, and get the money shots on the ball -- BI/GT, supports, then rebounding action again.

You are, if he's in your primary.

1. shooter
2. ball
3. rebounding off the miss

Go back & read the rest of the thread

Ding, ding. This is the winner.:D

How come I'm never the winner in these things...?

http://www.poster.net/kimberlin-keit...py-5001238.jpg

I've read it all, much as I can stand. It's simply boring me to read the same things over and over again.

You folks sit and watch the ball flutter towards the hoop and I'll simply work the way I always have.

Works for me.

I agree, Rich.

;)

The simple truth is that had anyone other than Nevada said rebounding was the priority this would have died at a page or two.

Gee the standard training says shot goes up trail steps down to see rebounding action...hmmmm, seems deeper opens up ball action better...doesn't say shot goes up move to better see the shot, now does it?

Yeah, the Grand Clique Theorem. We all hate Nevada...except maybe the clintons.

Yeah, like it doesn't happen.

Nevada says something the Usual Suspects disagree, multiple pages of dog piling goes on.

The usual suspects say something, someone disagrees, the dog pile hits the poster disagreeing, posts get deleted and the thread dies or gets closed.


Nothing going on here, move along, nothing to see.:rolleyes:

My Worst Call Last Season
 

My worst call of last season: Girls varsity. A few seconds to go in the first quarter. I'm the trail, responsible for the shot and the clock. A-1 attempts a three-pointer from my primary with no defender near her. Still no horn. I watch the flight of the ball. It clangs off the rim and bounces high above the rim. Still no horn. In a boys game, I would be watching for basket interference, but since it was a girls game, I decided to glance at the clock in case of a rebounding foul. Tenths of a second left. I turn back to the ball and basket to see the ball enter the basket at the buzzer. I count the three-pointer to end the quarter.

A few Team B players politely tell me the ball hit a supporting wire. I can also tell from the reaction of the crowd that it probably hit the supporting wire. I go to my partner who was the lead, to see if he can help me. Of course he can't, which I already knew, because his responsibility is to keep his eyes down, looking for rebounding fouls. But I ask him anyway, to show the Team B head coach, who is questioning my call, that I'm trying to get as much information as possible. My partner says that he didn't see it hit the supporting wire. I tell the Team B head coach that I can't change a call without definite knowledge, and I say "I'm sorry if I missed it". He says, "Sorry doesn't take away the three points" and appears very upset with me.

In the locker room at halftime, the junior varsity officials, who had stayed to watch the varsity game, say that the ball did hit the supporting wire. Going onto the court after halftime, the Team B head coach apologizes for losing his temper, which never even approached the need for a technical foul. I accept his apology, and explain to him that I missed the ball touching the supporting wire because I had glanced at the clock to check the time. Before the second half started, all the members of the table crew, from both teams told me that the ball had hit the supporting wire.

Lesson learned: As the trail, always watch the flight of the ball, boys, girls, players who play above the rim, players who play below the rim, always, period.

From trail position, the ball is not the primary coverage it is one thing of many that must be covered...

Trail always has perimeter and weakside rebounds. lead has strong side and is guessing pretty bad if calls anything more. Lead is not going to see weakside rebound fouls especially from behind. That is trail's call pure and simple.


I would suggest that if you cant watch perimeter and weakside rebounding, he players jumping near the rim, and the ball, your position on the court may be too close. or you are too focused on the ball. Trail has to multi-task...

I went to a camp a few years ago, one of the clinicians made a statement in the camp that has stuck with me... the weight of the world is on trail's shoulders. He was right Trail has a ton of responsibility on the floor in a two person game.

If you think about it lead has an area of about 400-600 sq ft (sorry not a math major) on the floor. Trail has 3500 plus sq ft

You gotta be in a position to call what you need to call. Watching the flight of the ball from shooter to basket, especially when shot was not out of your primary just does not work. if you watch the flight of the ball from hands to basket it means you were not watching your primary in the first place. If you use your peripheral vision you know when shots go up...

If it is from primary you have to make sure shooter does not get decked. get the rebounding action and go to the ball to ensure that other stuff doesnt happen. It can be done with some work... but focusing on the ball all the way is asking for trouble.

Obviously, I'm going to disagree with this. (You already knew that if you read the rest of the thread. :) ) Yes, the Trail is responsible for lots of stuff. But in my very humble opinion, based on years of training -- not to mention my experience last week -- the flight of the ball is the PRIMARY responsibility of the Trail official.

The thread now moves into "No it isn't", "Yes, it is", "No, it isn't" territory, so I think I'll probably just excuse myself from this point on with the realization that different things work for different people. Leaving the ball early doesn't work for me. :shrug:

Couldn't all these things happen fast enough that there are multiple primary things to look at?

Some random thoughts...

Has it really been that long since I've done two-man? Kelvin, I don't understand how you can say Lead is strong side and Trail is weak side unless you work in a system where Lead crosses the lane in two man. Is that the case? If not, don't the players and the play dictate this?

Are you guys saying you literally watch the flight of the ball? This is something that happens fast, but the only time I've ever heard of this is when I read where Reggie Miller watched the flight of his shots. Other than that, I don't know. If I shoot a ball I'm not watching the flight of the ball, I direct my attention to the hoop hoping it isn't one of those rare occasions where I miss. :D Depending on the depth of the Trail and the location of the shooter, can't we have all of this within our view? If the shot clanks off the rim and goes up, obviously experience will tell us to check to see if it hits anything. I analyze many things, but I guess this isn't one of them up until now.
How many of those saying watch the flight of the ball have called a rebounding foul from Trail, before the ball has hit the rim? Actually, I'm not sure calling that a rebounding foul is accurate. These are often plays where a player gets pushed/pulled totally out of rebounding position.

No it doesn't Me too Me either.

At the risk of extreme ridicule, I'm going to say that I really can't believe this is the hard and fast rule for all situations. In a JV girls' game where there are no guy wires, there's just no reason to follow the flight of the ball, and lots of reasons to be watching top-side action.

You do lots and lots and lots of upper level boys and men's games, and for your level it makes sense to do it your way. Maybe every gym in your area has guy wires. So your rule works for you.

Around here only about half the gyms even have those wires there, and I've only done maybe 10 games where there was any play at all above the rim. On the other hand, I"ll have at least one foul while the ball is in the air for a shot almost every game. If I miss the occasional (once or twice a year?) maybe-it-hit-the-wire, well, yea, I missed it. But if I miss that shove in the back, that sweeping arm to get position ofr the rebound, then there's some royally mad players now looking for blood.

I'm not ignoring the ball entirely, but when the shot goes up, I decide in a hurry how much to be glancing at the flight, and much to be not really looking. And btw, I'm not watching shoelaces. I'm seeing backside action when there are 8 or 10 players in the key. I watching to see whatever lead can't because of crowding.

On the other hand, next year when I'm getting some boys' varsity games, and I might be seeing some play above the rim, I'll be seeing more of the ball, too. based on your recommendation, Scrappy, Dan and others.

Can't we all agree that this part of Juulie's post is a pretty darn good example of what really happens on these plays and the fact that it is determined by what level of play you have?

Hey, I'm a uniter, not a divider! :D

"w"
 

George W. Bush
May 6, 1999