kid said what to get a T
 

Boys Varisty game

I call a player control (lead position) and head to midcourt to report. After I am done reporting I go to assume the lead position going the other way. Said player walks by and says "You are the reason we are loosing".

I T him up. 2 point game 4 minutes to go in the 4th. I have a 0 crap policy and do hand out more T's than most varisty refs. In most cases coaches and players know in advance when they are about to get one because I tell them. In this case I didnt think the warning was necessary.

However several other officials have said they would ignore it based on the circumstance (game time and score) -- I told them thats their choice, and how do they expect the kids to learn where the line is.

Thoughts on letting it go versus issuing the T.

I have no problem with this T.

I do want to ask you what you meant by Do you say "I'm going to give you a technical foul?" or are you referring to warning that you give like "I've heard enough" or the stop sign?

I usually tell them something like if they keep on this topic/argument/wild goose chase its going to cost them. Some get it, some dont, and some dont care. So I look at it as the coach chose to get a T.

He puts them on double-secret probation.

Based upon his past struggles with the rules as expressed on this forum, I'm shocked that deecee is working varsity games.

Of course I wouldn't have any problem with giving a kid a T for that, and the officials who said to ignore it are spineless.

Each of us handles things on our own and I have been given what I think is sound advice to simply say "Coach, I've heard enough" and walk away...if they persist, say it again with the stop sign and if they continue then move to T.

I feel what you are doing is baiting or challenging them..."It's gonna cost you" is like daring them to say something or telling your kids, "If you do that one more time...."

In other words, he baits them into it because he is a smart-@ss kid.

why is that a bait? I am up front with them that they are on thin ice. I see it better than just giving them a T.

And funny comment Nevada -- you might even be surprised that I did playoffs games in the past as well.

Well, there is no provision in the rule book that I am aware of that says you have to give any warning but generally I simply tell them I've heard enough....I have just lowered the boom before though without any warning...

Why do I feel this way (baiting)...probably by what you wrote you say to them...Doesn't simply stating, "Coach I've heard enough", let them know they have worn out your eardrum?

I guess it's that .. just sounds like an invite or challenge or baiting them to say something else so you can whack them and show them who is boss.

Like I said, we each handle thing in our own manner....what I'm saying may not be in your comfort zone as what you say would not be in mine....

I prefer the direct approach with coaches I'm familiar with.

"If you yell across the court again, you will receive a technical foul."

Why would you use a phrase like, "it'll cost ya."?

Ok...the cynic in me says ...What if he yells across the court for a timeout...:D I know you'd not do that Rich....

I'm not gonna say "it'll cost ya" just not for me...

colt -- thank you and good point. I guess I will work on adjusting my warning.

There is a difference between a player saying that he doesn't agree with a call... and saying that you are the reason they are losing. By saying that he is questioning your integrity and yes.. he should be T'd up for that immediatly without warning.

Even though I was not there, I probably would have asked the player to repeat what they said. If they did not repeat what they said, then I would just let them know directly that "you might not want to go down that road with me." I would either tell the coach that he needs to take care of X player or I will, or if I did not have a chance to talk to the coach, I would just put that in my little back pocket and the next time player X does not get another chance.

It is really hard to say what I would do if no one heard the comments because if the kid was a jag off earlier in the game that would be easy. If that was the first time he said anything, I might handle it differently. I want to avoid a T anytime I can. But sometimes people put you into a situation that you have little choice.

Peace

Jeff R has some great advice. You are well within the rule book to give a T. It's all about context and your own personal style and standards.

Some players and coaches get it, and you can be direct and honest with them. Humor also works with them, because you know nothing will escalate. Others do not, and that's when you have to get firm, once.

If this kid fit into the first category, I'd have given him a pass. Even in the second category, unless he had almost gotten T'd before, I'd have given him one more chance. Without profanity, unless you get horrible body language, in a tight game with not much time left, as long as it ends there, I'd let the game run its course without the T.

Did that team end up winning or losing, and by what margin?

I think that when dealing with a verbal excahnge, it is fair to give them a chance to retract or just shut up. I had a situation on Saturday where I had just called a travelling violation on a kid. I then ended up right in front of their bench and one of the ASSistant coaches wants to talk about why that wasn't a travel. I said, "Coach, he travelled, and I'm not going to discuss it with you." He kept yapping, and I said, "Alan (who is the HC) you need to get your bench under control." AC looks at me and says, "I'm not out of control." WHACK!!

Still too much.

Avoid phrases like that, it's too close to, "I don't want to hear another word coach!" Then the coach says, "Sorry, you are right." Now if you want to have any credibility you have to whack him for apologizing.

I'd use, "Coach I won't have you yelling comments across the floor." Simple, direct, dealing with the behavior with just an implied threat. The coach knows what is coming, but it isn't delivered in a confrontational way.

Discretion is the better part of valor...

2 point game and 4 minutes to go in 4th and a T?

How bout using your captains or coach and tell them to get the player under control before he has to be penalized for unsportsmanlike conduct?

T's need to make to keep game neutral or game better. I doubt that this one would do either one...

I'm kind of shocked. I am not bashful with my Ts at all, but I don't think I would say some of the stuff that I've heard here. I have asked a coach to please stop yelling at me. That is about all I will say to the coach before he is T'd. I will do what Rut said and ask a player to repeat himself/herself if I'm not 100% sure. If I'm 100% sure, done deal. I did have a player tell me one time, "I'm talking to you!" He was done for the night about 1 minute later.

So tell us how much a player has to say to get a T in this situation? I'm not letting a kid do this blatantly in one of my games.

At a youth travel league game on Sunday...played with rules modifications that forbid zones...one of the coaches was yapping in my ear that the other team was playing a zone. I called the coaches together and reminded them of the rule and told them it was our decision what constitued a zone.

(From the league rules:The officials at the game site have the final responsibility for interpreting the violation. If there is no advantage being gained then the official in all likelihood may not call the violation. If any coach has an issue with the rule it is to be addressed with their league coordinator - NOT the referee.)

Barely two minutes later, the complaining coach stood and screamed, "That's a zone. You have to call that a zone." The only thing I called was a technical foul. Now...my partner was trail on the table side and he ignored the coach that was just over his shoulder. I called the T from the far lead -- while his team had the ball.

The game ended just fine. No warning, no stop sign, no threats. Someone here recently said a good test of a T is what does it do to the rest of the game. This one shut up the yapper and got him to focus on coaching from his seat. It made the game a lot better. I can only imagine what this guy would have been like if I had "warned" him. Unsporting behavior is obvious to most of us. I am still amazed at how many of us find excuses for not dealing with it.

To a point I agree with your first sentence......But I also feel there is a sportsmanship element to it as well...IMO his comment crossed over the line and called into question my credibility as an official who is unbaised nor cares who wins the game.

He can THINK that but he's not going to verbalize it and have me hear it....Let the kid learn from the situation...at the end of the day he needs to learn how to conduct himself when life get's tough....casting blame on the official or others won't cut it in the real world.

I guess your integrity being questioned doesnt bother you? what's it worth to me is more than calling fouls and violations...but thats just my personal viewpoint.

A T is just another foul/violation I call. Not everything has to be done with captains and coaches, and has to be drawn out. People make choices and there are reprecussions (some good some bad). This isnt a personal judging of said kid or coach, its just a call to me. One that little Johnny earned with the period he put on the end of his sentence. One that I will call the same way 100% of the time.

Our integrity is questioned all the time. There are degrees of that behavior. Every time you hear a reference to the foul count, that is a questioning of your integrity and I do not know most official that would automatically call a T if that issue was raised.

That may be true it is just another call to you, but it is not just another call to all other parties. And if you make a call that no one hears, then unless you have such a reputation that is beyond reproach, it might get into a he said/he said kind of situation. I would like a call like this to be as obvious as possible.

Peace

Then why even post and ask your question if you're not interested in hearing somethign different? This has become a "questioning the integrity" drama-queen description, when in reality it was a frustrated kid venting his opinion of your performance (or one call). Do you have to take that? No. Is that an automatic T for all officials? No. People here just trying to give you things to think about, except NevadaRef, who thinks you shouldn't even have those games for reasons unbeknownst to the reasonable folks.

When this issue gets raised, if the coach's team is in the lead, I tell him that if I'm going to even up the foul count, I'll have to even up the score as well. :D

I have an issue with this integrity being questioned ideal. Questioning integrity is "You are cheating for them." Asking about a foul count, saying a call was bad, isn't that just commenting on judgment or begging for a call? I guess I rarely, if ever, feel that people question integrity, unless they perceive you have a personal problem with them. Do people say we're terrible? All the time. Is that performance, or integrity? Big line in my mind, and one that rarely gets crossed.

I could care less when this occurs during the game or what the situation is. I don't believe in letting players blatantly dump on me, like this one is doing. And if he said that about my partner(s), I'd nail his butt too.

It's a slippery slope imo. Once you let one player get away with it, to be consistent you then have to be prepared to let every player on both teams take a free shot at you. Personally, I'll be damned if I'm gonna put myself in that position.

My own opinion is that there is just way too much over-thinking going on about calling technical fouls. If it's unsporting behavior, then it's our job to deal with it.

I'm with Tom.

Oracle I agree with what you say here.

Jrut I disagree -- Oracle said it best -- Telling an official he's the reason you are loosing is different than complaining that we have called 6 fouls on one team versus only 2 for the other. One questions judgement (and that happens almost everytime air is put in a whistle), the other doesnt.

JR -- i agree with you here as well -- I am finding it harder to understand why I hear more and more officials try and justify a Tech (dont call that in a close game -- dont do that if he ONLY said it to you and no one else hears it). Usually the act that deserves a Tech is justification enough.

You can disagree but that does not make your statement any more correct. When they are yelling about the foul count, they are staying you are purposely setting the fouls in one teams favor. I do not know how judgment even plays a role in that. It is just not as blatant and how you handle that is up to you. My point is there is more then one way to skin a cat. My response is that every action does not need a penalty. I want them to hang themselves so when they die I am not the only one that witnessed the gun.

Peace

I guess I dont officiate in the court of public opinion

Jeff...............that's an excellent way to handle it in my view. Hopefully I won't have to use it.

It's very hard to make a judgement call on these situations that we read in print only, much depends on the attitude, inflection, body language, all of the usual stuff.

I hate to break it to you; it might not be the public opinion you have to worry about. It might be your assignor, your state organization or any other people that decide

I will give you an example. I told a kid during a X-Mas Tournament this past season that the actions between him and the other player might result in a technical foul if they decided to keep the holding and pushing that took place before I handed the thrower the ball. To make a long story short, the kid went back and said this to the coach. Then the coach tried to confront me after the game near the hospitality room and went to the tournament director to complain about me. Of course I had a very understanding group of individuals and nothing was a problem, but I have seen situations where it would be. And whether you like it or not if someone feels you did the wrong thing or took actions unwarranted in your hands, then you might get barred from the league you work (I have seen this happen to people) or not get post season assignments. Now all I said was to dot your "I" and cross your "T" so that when you do give a T, it is harder to question your judgment or your motives. And if this discussion has not taught you anything, then you better realize that everyone is not supporting your actions 100%. And if you get the wrong assignor or evaluator that says you are wrong, then you might suffer some consequences far beyond this game. My main point is you should protect yourself as much as you possibly can.

Peace

a couple of alternate ideas
 

Here are some things that have worked for me and others I know of:

1) If the player says something in a tight game and has been a good citizen for the most part. After the foul is reported, walk by the player and tell them "this is a good game, you don't want to hurt your team now." This has worked effectively.

2) If the player doesn't quite get it, then the next contact could definitely result in a foul on the player. Maybe they will get the message then.

3) Let the coach know that the player is on the edge of hurting the team, then let the coach deal with it.

4) Next time you have that player, just remind them that we are not going to have a repeat of the last game, because they were given the benefit of a doubt the last time.

If you T that is your choice, but these are just a couple of ideas that might also be effective for you in other situations.

So in other words you are going to do everything you can to avoid dealing with the issue to include calling the next contact a foul where you otherwise would pass. Maybe you should change your name to icallbs.

Great advice, Jeff. One common theme I have heard from my supervisors is that if you are perceived as unapproachable, you will not be working at that level for very long. To me, that means I am responsible for that. It means actively and honestly listening to everything before reacting or dropping the hammer. A coach or player crosses the line, everyone will know it. Those gray and/or "ego" areas--they are fair game for interpretation, which may or may not go your way all the time.

Question Integrity ???
 

Amen.

Modified Rules
 

On weekends, when available, I work some Catholic middle school games that have "modified rules" when certain point differentials are reached, no fast breaks, no presses, stay inside the arc on defense, stay inside the lane on defense, etc.

My problem is that none of these terms are defined in any rule book that I know of. NFHS rules have a single rule, I believe the longest section in the book, Rule 4, on definitions. The NFHS has a reason for this long section. I wish that league adminsitrators would realize how difficult it is for officials to enforce rules where certain terms are not well defined.

maybe not the next contact foul... but I would say I am going to do everything I can to PREVENT it.... or make sure he earned it

I believe in being to the point and quite clear and unambiguous. Telling a coach he is about to receive a technical foul if he doesn't change his behavior will lead to 2 things -- he changes his behavior or he gets whacked. It takes quite a bit before I get to this point, but once I do I follow through.

And there's no misunderstanding that the coach has been warned. Another ditty to add to the game report, if it comes to that.

I personally do not like to threaten or say the words technical foul. But I will say that "if you do not handle this (or change this) behavior, then you are going to leave me with little or no choice to take action." I have found that it gets across the point of view that I want them to get. And they know what I mean. It seems to come off less confrontational in my experiences. And I feel it empowers them to make the right decision rather than it looking like I was using my power over them. I have even said to players when they get goofy, "Do you want to play the next game?" They get the message really quick.

Peace

Late:
No Brainer...Whack the kid. Players get 0 tolerance when unsportingly addressing officials, in my games.

In fact, 0 tolerance when unsportingly addressing anyone....

example:

Short Version: I whacked a kid for taunting a player last night.

Long Version:

Last night I was part of a 3 person crew officiating a Martin Luther King Jr Day H.S. Varsity tournament. Late in a 20 point blow-out...B1, that was winning, was guarding A1 as A1 was dribbling up the floor. I'm Trail with the two players.

B1 started saying something like, "I'm going to strip you boy"...then B1 steals the ball and starts dribbling towards his basket as he says, "see I got ya"!

All this takes place in less than 2 seconds.

I blow my whistle and Whack B1 right after he stole the ball from A1.

The crowd and Coach initially think I call a foul on the clean steal. (I probably could have slowed down my "T" sign after I blew the whistle...and held it a little longer) No one heard the kid taunting the other player. But, I did...so he got whacked. I said to the table, in a loud voice..."Unsporting behavior, taunting on blue 5".

One of my partners came over and asked if I wanted to administer the FT's...I said no, I wanted to talk to the Coach.

The Coach was standing in his box as I approached. I told him what happened...and he said, "We don't need that, and the sub for him is at the table". I said, "Great"...and away we went.
We finished the game uneventful.

Moral of the story: Don't be afraid to issue warranted T's...just come up with a sound philosophy on what warrants the T.

I'm jumping in on this late. It sounds like a solid T to me, no matter what the score or time happens to be. He used the magic word of "you". As far as the baiting conversation, I try to use, "Ok coach, you've had your say, you need to let it go now." and walk away.

It's a "have to be there" decision. There are times I will use the words, and there are times I know I don't have to or would be just egging the coach on. 15 years of dealing with coaches in 3 sports at the varsity level or above have made me pretty good at knowing what to say, although I don't always get it perfect.

The latest time: I had to walk down the other end of the court to defuse a situation where my (less experienced) partner was allowing too much cross-court yelling to happen (on an out of bounds call the coach could not possibly see, no less). I wasn't going to whack the coach from 70 feet away on the other side of the court, but I wasn't going to allow the situation to continue. I used the words "technical foul" when talking to him and realized he may say something unkind back I would have to let go considering I went all the way TO him which looked aggressive on my part to begin with. But the NEXT one where he YELLED would, indeed, be handled with a T. I promised him that.

As I said to my partner that night (who is a first year varsity official), it will get easier to handle these kind of things once you whack a few coaches who have it coming (and probably some who don't).