The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Basketball (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/)
-   -   Officials Suspended over Phantom Basket (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/41228-officials-suspended-over-phantom-basket.html)

MajorCord Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:18pm

Officials Suspended over Phantom Basket
 
I know one of these officials. He is one of the best in our association. I do not know who was responsible. A valuable lesson for all of us: no matter how much experience you may have, mistakes can still be made.

http://www.wbir.com/sports/story.aspx?storyid=53677

JugglingReferee Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:29pm

Yup - anything can happen to anyone. It's unfortunate, but these things do happen. I think someone invented a bumper sticker to remind us of this fact.

Cases like these, imho, are the ones where the officials have a greater impact on the game than intended: it's tough for teams to come back from points that didn't actually happen.

ca_rumperee Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:30pm

I think this line says it all.
 
Quote:

None of the other officials, the clock operator or either official scorer could verify whether the ball had gone in.
Wired.

Andy Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:34pm

I read the story and I noticed this comment from the losing coach:

Quote:

"Disciplining the actions of the officials involved in our game with Wingate does not address the heart of the matter," Carson-Newman Head Coach Dave Clayton. "I'm very disappointed Commissioner Doug Echols has chosen to disregard the real issues in this situation, the student-athletes involved and integrity of the game."
So this leads me to assume that Carson-Newman played a perfect game with no turnovers, no missed shots, and no missed free throws??? :rolleyes:

Yes...the officials screwed up....they were suspended.

I just wonder if Coach Clayton was on the other end of this, would he volunteer to give the two points back?

Nevadaref Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:39pm

It's a ridiculous error. All of us know it. They deserve to be suspended and they know it too.

PS The same thing happened in boys D2 State Final in CA last season. Taylor King now playing for Duke was the player awarded the basket that didn't go in.

Kelvin green Mon Jan 21, 2008 04:54pm

What I wonder is if there was any video equipment available?

NCAA rules allow the use of video replay to prevent scoring mistakes and correctable errors (incorrectly counting/cancelling a score)

Would have been an easy fix if they did...

truerookie Mon Jan 21, 2008 07:03pm

The referee, went to the scorer's table and said to count the basket. None of the other officials, the clock operator or either official scorer could verify whether the ball had gone in.

These bolded words are very important to 3-man officiating IMO. Trail or Center should have verified if the basket should have counted or not. Like someone stated they should have been suspended for this gross misuse of judgement.

JRutledge Mon Jan 21, 2008 07:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin green
What I wonder is if there was any video equipment available?

NCAA rules allow the use of video replay to prevent scoring mistakes and correctable errors (incorrectly counting/cancelling a score)

Would have been an easy fix if they did...

The problem is the video equipment has to be available for this specific purpose. And if it was not available within specific parameters, it cannot be used. I doubt seriously that many Division 2 games have this kind of equipment available. I could be wrong, but lower level college is such a mixed bag.

Peace

johnnyrao Tue Jan 22, 2008 03:34am

Okay, just for fun, because this would probably never happen. But, what if the coach of the winning team actually does want to teach character to his players and comes over to you, as the calling official, and tells you that the basket you just counted in favor of his team did not actually go in. I know this wouldn't happen, but, if it did, can you use this as an official to change the call and disallow the basket?

MajorCord Tue Jan 22, 2008 09:21am

I imagine that someone had a videotape of the game to show to the commissioner that the basket had indeed not gone in. I was wondering if the officials would have been allowed to go to the tape themselves to confirm or what protocol applied here. What equipment is made available to officials?

bob jenkins Tue Jan 22, 2008 09:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorCord
I imagine that someone had a videotape of the game to show to the commissioner that the basket had indeed not gone in. I was wondering if the officials would have been allowed to go to the tape themselves to confirm or what protocol applied here. What equipment is made available to officials?

Replay equipment must be located in the vicinity of the scoring table in order to be used by the officials.

chartrusepengui Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:26am

I can't understand how everyone - including the clock operator and scorer could all have missed this. IMO - if you suspend the crew you should also suspend clock operator/scorer as well if you are the home school. I understand that clock operator and scorer are not under the jurisdiction of the commissioner - but somewhere along the line you'd think someone might have been actually watching:eek:

Overnbach Tue Jan 22, 2008 01:39pm

Huh?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui
I can't understand how everyone - including the clock operator and scorer could all have missed this. IMO - if you suspend the crew you should also suspend clock operator/scorer as well if you are the home school. I understand that clock operator and scorer are not under the jurisdiction of the commissioner - but somewhere along the line you'd think someone might have been actually watching:eek:

You're kidding, right? Since when did the clock operator or the scorer have the repsonsibility to determine when a shot is made? It would be nice if they could help, but I don't think they can be held responsible.

But I could be wrong. And if I am, I'm sure someone will tell me.

JugglingReferee Tue Jan 22, 2008 01:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overnbach
You're kidding, right? Since when did the clock operator or the scorer have the repsonsibility to determine when a shot is made? It would be nice if they could help, but I don't think they can be held responsible.

But I could be wrong. And if I am, I'm sure someone will tell me.

No, you're not wrong. Like you said, it's nice if they can help us out, but we are responsible for our duties and shouldn't expect that a scorekeeper be our backup.

Gimlet25id Tue Jan 22, 2008 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Replay equipment must be located in the vicinity of the scoring table in order to be used by the officials.

Incorrect!:( The replay equipment has to be located on a designated courtside table within 3 to 12 feet of the playing court. (Anywhere around the playing court)

Section 13. Games with Replay/Television Equipment
Art. 1. Courtside replay equipment, videotape or television monitoring must
be located on a designated courtside table (i.e., within approximately 3 to
12 feet of the playing court), in order to be utilized by game officials. An
on-screen graphic display on the monitor may be used only when the display
is synchronized with the official game clock.

chartrusepengui Tue Jan 22, 2008 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
No, you're not wrong. Like you said, it's nice if they can help us out, but we are responsible for our duties and shouldn't expect that a scorekeeper be our backup.

Thats exactly what I was talking about. Yes we are responsible for our duties and I don't have a problem with the suspension but by the same token - I would expect a scorekeeper to be watching and at least be able to help out in a situation like this. Hey ref - ball never went in the basket - who should I credit it to?

Gimlet25id Tue Jan 22, 2008 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge
The problem is the video equipment has to be available for this specific purpose. And if it was not available within specific parameters, it cannot be used. I doubt seriously that many Division 2 games have this kind of equipment available. I could be wrong, but lower level college is such a mixed bag.

Peace

I'm sure that they must not have had a monitor available or else they would have utilized it, since this would be a monitor play.

I officiate in a DII conference where we have had several games with a courtside monitor present. Most of those games were being recorded for playback @ a later date.

Gimlet25id Tue Jan 22, 2008 02:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
No, you're not wrong. Like you said, it's nice if they can help us out, but we are responsible for our duties and shouldn't expect that a scorekeeper be our backup.

I agree! It is ultimately our responsibility to know if the ball went in or not. The article said that the, "referee," went to the table and told them to count the basket.

I wonder if the referee was the calling official on this play. If it wasn't I wonder who told the table to count it, "calling official," or "referee?" Just curious to how it all went down.

Its not out of the question to go to the table for help. Personally I've had to do it before. The table is part of our team that night and as much as I want us to be perfect were not. If the table can give information that will help in a ruling then lets get it.

If the officials discussed this play and they couldn't verify that the basket went in then my next stop would be (assuming there isn't a courtside monitor) the scorekeeper, official book, play by play, guest book (if its @ the table.) In that order respectively.

Just about every game now has play by play. If play by play, none of the table, & partners have this as a made basket then I certainly would not have counted it. It would be real hard for me to assume the basket went in when no one else, especially play by play, could verify the made basket.

Overnbach Tue Jan 22, 2008 03:39pm

Mostly agree
 
I agree with most of what has been posted. The part I had trouble with was the suggestion to suspend the clock operator and the scorekeeper for not knowing whether the ball went in the basket.

As a high school clock operator, I often have helped officials who are having troubles, although I hesitate to challenge them, as I may be wrong. But I have quietly said that the ball did indeed go in the basktet when the official called a foul and awarded two free throws, or that the ball did not go in when it was called good. I have sounded the horn to say that they are lining up at the wrong basket for a free throw. Or that the ball appeared to go out of bounds off white, you called "blue ball," pointed blue, and now you are about to put it into play for white. I have sounded the horn to stop play when the players begin play after the first of two free throws awarded. (I'm not sure I should do that one.) Most of the time my help has been appreciated. In fact, one of the best officials in our association once said, "You're my hero!" when I kept him from going against the arrow and giving the ball to the wrong team on an alternating possession. (He is good, but he might be given to hyperbole!) I sometimes think I have a good view and I disagree with the official on whether it was a three-point try, but I never argue that one. We have all levels of ability in our association, and some need more help than others. But I am really bothered that three college officials didn't get this one right, without help.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1