Player Control....When?
 

Here's the play that started this conversation...

A1 fumbles the ball in their frontcourt near the timeline. B1 instead of catching the loose ball intentionally pushes the ball to the floor with both of his feet in his frontcourt/"A's" backcourt, where the ball hits the timeline and bounces back up where B1 just continues to dribble the ball back into his backcourt.

When did B1 establish player control? Is this a O & B violation?

NFHS/NCAA are the same in the definition of a dribble..."A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

NFHS/NCAA are the same for player control..."A Player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or DRIBBLING a live ball inbounds...."

To rule this play correctly you have to know when player control was established. The key to that on this play is the dribble. When during the dribble does the player get player control? On the release to start the dribble or does the ball have to hit the floor in order for player control to be established. Neither book is clear. What are your thoughts on this.

If B1 is intentionally pushing the ball to the floor with his feet wouldn't you be calling this a kick?

He pushed the ball with his hand, his feet are in his frontcourt.

It's strictly a judgment call as to whether or not B1 had control of the ball when he started the dribble or if it was just a tip without control. Don't overthink it.

It seems to me that B's first dribble was still in the BC (the "three-points" rule), so this wouldn't be a violation.

First let me say that a play this close to the timeline would require absolute certainty that the player had player control. I would think 99% of us would have nothing on the play. This play brings up an interesting question as to when does the player establish player control?

The dribble definition is ambiguous in that it doesn't really specify when a dribble starts. So when does player control establish? On the release to start a dribble or is it not a dribble until the ball hits the floor.

If we don't have player control until the ball hits the floor then in this play the ball has backcourt status. if player control is established on the initial push then we have frontcourt team control status on the push.

Not that any of us will have this play or have to worry about spitting hairs if it happens its just food for thought & I thought it would be a good discussion.:)

Good point! However by rule the three point's only applies to players dribbling from their backcourt to their frontcourt.

In this play the player was in their frontcourt already when they made the intial push to the floor to start a dribble.