help with 3 man rotation
 

Getting ready to do my first varsity 3 man game and would love some tips on how the rotation works.

What do you need to know? When is the game?

Peace

4:30, just the basics..

a few weeks. need to know the basic about rotating

1. Mirror the ball when in the lead.

2. You have 40% coverage when at the Center c

3. You have 60% coverage when at the Trail.

Pregame this with your partners and have fun!

true rookie, thanks for the info-any more detail on the three points you mentioned

Yeah, Truerookie expand on your points. I have never heard those percentages.

3-Man
 

Calling official always goes table side, except when in the backcourt moving to front court, then you just step out, report and go right back. Lead will NEVER indicate 3 except in the case of a last second shot to help trail and then you will only indicate that a 3 has been attempted and the T or C will detrmine if the shoot was in time. As the C start at about the free throw line extended and work from there, usually no more than a step or two above it unless there is a trap in your corner near the backcourt in which case you will initiate the rotation. As L or C in transition glace to see where your T is that you can make sure you are in the proper position, OK to accidentally have two Ls, but never good to have two Cs. If you make a mistake your partners will help you by filling in. Remember, you guys are probably the only ones that will know you made a mistake unless you are being evaluated.

Do you have an official's manual for 3-person? This will lay out the coverage areas specifically...just a few items off the top of my head...have a patient whistle, give your partner first shot at the action in their primary....this is especially true as the L, don't be quick to reach through the lane to C's area to pull fouls out of there, give C the first shot...same on rebounding action, most of those fouls will come from C or L....get as wide as you can from the L to get the big picture...don't worry a ton about rotations, but L will intiate them, just get across and rotate when you believe you need to be on the other side to officiate the action there. Most rotations start to come naturally, if you are on one side and the ball and 8 players are on the other, then get over there. Don't be lazy as the C and don't bail out, close down a step from the C when the shot goes up... Worry about calling your game, the rest will come - see if you can get out and watch a few 3-person games before your game, this will help you....

So what do you do if a shot is taken behind the line in transition, in the corner and the trail hasn't made it down the court. Remember, this wasn't your only exception to the Lead NEVER signalling a three.

Lead never has a five count.

I know this is true NCAA, I have been told that in NF you count in your primary...

This is getting interesting. Let's think about all the plays that could happen in a basketball game. If you look at all the plays the C would call - plays that are not in a dual area, but clearly in the C's primary - and divide them up into two categories: plays where the Lead should have a whistle and plays where the Lead shouldn't have a whistle. Now, we all know the plays where the Lead should NOT have a whistle will outnumber the others by a mile. Having come to that conclusion, what should that Lead plan for, to call across the lane slow whistle and all or not call across the lane? Common sense would say to plan not to make calls across the lane. Since the OP may get confused with backside help, stop right there! Don't call across the paint. If you feel like you just have to look over there, rotate over there. If you feel like you have to look out top too...well then you are watching the ball and that is a whole different subject. :D

Trail will take a position at or below the 28 foot line and coverage will extend across to opposite side of the free-throw line. Thus 60%

Center will take a position along the sideline at the free throw line where he/she can move two steps above or below that location(free-throw line) to obtain proper angles. Thus 40%. The center also have division line responsibility on their side.

Lead has everything in the lane with assist of the center at times.

[QUOTE=kbilla] same on rebounding action, most of those fouls will come from C or L....

Don't you mean most rebounding action will come from C or T. Rarely should the lead have a push from behind.

Uh...no.

Where did you hear that C has division line responsibility and Lead has everything in the lane? Assuming you are not confused, locate the person who told you that and mark them down as someone you don't listen to anymore.

Doesn't the C have half the paint? :D

Agreed in a basic sense to say don't call across the lane, but if I am C there is a skip and a quick drive out of my primary (not time to rotate) and B1 reaches in and grabs A1's arm and I am straightlined and don't get it then I would hope to hell that the L would help me out...better to have a late whistle than no whistle if it IS a foul...but correct, if you have to default into "don't call across the lane" and "do", then yeah stay out of there...

YES AND YES! Yeah you can't cut it that cleanly 60/40, that is why I said get a manual and a diagram...

You also told him the Lead has the entire paint. No wonder you are making calls across the lane. Do you have a manual?

If you want to get into backside help then yeah the Lead can make that call. However, I would be you $100 bucks that if you are really worried about this enough to use that as a reason to tell someone new to this system that it could be a reason to call across the paint...you probably watch the ball.

Yeah if C has to cover the division line in a given situation (ie. trap at center court in C's "coffin corner"), then C should force the rotation and become the new T...then they would have the division line, but they would now be T...pghboy, this would be the only situation that I can think of where a rotation would be "initiated" by someone other than L....but C does NOT have division line responsibility...

I said no such thing, truerookie said that! Come on at least quote me correctly!

Are you telling me you do not make a single call across the lane in any of your games? I basically agreed with you with the caveat that when the ball comes down the lane as L it's not like you intentionally look the other way...that is how you make it sound...as L you are GOING to see the play coming at you, otherwise why would the NCAA mechanic/coverage be that L has the action going to the hoop regardless of which side it comes from? So being that you are GOING to see the action (unless you are suggesting that he intentionally look away), you have two choices if you see what you deem to be a foul 1) decide that C had the best look at it and passed, therefore you should pass or 2) decide that it is an obvious foul that C did not get and come in and get it.

I think I see the confusion, this post was meant to mean "YES I AGREE WITH YOUR FIRST POINT" and "YES I AGREE WITH YOUR SECOND POINT"....

Yes, I wanted to keep it a little simple did not what to go that deep. You are correct C has half the paint :D

I apologize for quoting you when it was Truerookie.

Who told you that it is a NCAA mechanic that the Lead has action going to the hoop from either side? It seems like I have to say this locally all the time: there will be normal, average, happens all the time, drives from the C's side of the court and the C should take these. I have never heard of an NCAA mechanic where the Lead has every drive.
To answer your other question, in most of my games I do NOT call across the paint. I would call across the paint for the following reasons:

1. A non-basketball play
2. A play on the backside (from the C) where the C has no physical way of seeing the contact.
3. If there is a quick steal and the C may or may not be in position.
4. An obviously missed call by the C like a block/charge with no whistle.

If those situations do not occur in a game I do not call across the paint. Also keep in mind IMO a double whistle that is clearly in the C's primary and NOT in the dual coverage area is not a good double whistle. If I had a whistle on the backside or an obvious call that was missed it would be delayed and would not be at the same time as the C.

***We have talked about absolutes on the board several times. I'm not saying that what I posted above is absolute BUT this is what I plan for because this is what happens most of the time. I feel (very strongly) that if an official plans to call across the paint, that official WILL call across the paint when it isn't correct.

[QUOTE=truerookie]Sorry, exactly what I meant they should come from C or T..thanks...

So to keep it simple you would send someone without experience off with some bad or at the least misleading information? Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

This is specifically called out in the men's manual (unless I really misinterpreted this)...not saying that everyone actually practices this, the juco game I had on Sat, no one else was comfortable calling this way so we just went with NF in this regard..but regardless of how it is practiced, if they put it in the manual there must at least be some justification - we must be able to assume that the L can at least SEE the play....that said, like I said basically I agree with you, there should not be many calls across the lane. ESPECIALLY blocks/fouls involving "body" contact, C has the best look at those and nothing irks me more than watching a play from my primary as C develop and I follow it all the way in and there is a little body contact with no advantage and L reaches over and calls a block...but the things that L can help with are the holds, smacks, things that happen in front of A1 that C could possibly get straightlined from...if you see those happen as L, I welcome the help as C...my whole point was just to let this person know that while you shouldn't be looking for fouls over there, that doesn't mean that you look the other way either...

Really simple.

Relax and don't forget to officiate the game.

As lead, try to put your partners in the best position to officiate and that will lead to proper rotations, if you feel like you should be looking over there you should be moving over there.

As trail you will be able to see the lead go across, just fill in as they do.

As center if you are reffing on ball, you should be expecting a rotation, and you can easily pick up the old trail moving down as lead comes over.

In any case just get where you need to be to call the game and let the mechanics iron themselves out from there.

As you start getting the "feel" of it, the trust of your partners begins to grow and you'll find it even easier to move, ref, and cover the court.

I had a NAIA game on Saturday and my partner told us something I've never heard before. He said for us all to go out, draw a box and call in that box. It was his way of saying stay in your primary. I think his philosophy is good enough for Dale Kelly.
I'm busy with some other stuff to look, so can you tell me where it says to look at drives in your manual?

No it doesn't.

The drive belongs to whoever had the start of the drive. Lead has help defenders and is recommended to be at close down to ASSIST the C on drives from that side. The womens side calls it pinching the paint and wants lead to step down and back with one foot in the quicksand to HELP but it isn't leads primary call.

I would not say its totally bad. The official just needs to be aware that the lane is their responsibility. It can be pre-game with their partner(s). About how much is the lead and center responsibility.

I've been watching a couple games and I just couldn't figure out what was going on. Sometime the C was dropping down sometimes not. Sometimes there were Two C and these were experienced refs.
Are high school and NCAA same movement? I found it easier to understand watching NCAA. When I read about it I'm sure I will understand it more.

1. You can not over rotate.
2. Double whistles are OK.
3. Be strong at C.

Then this 07-08 CCA men's manual that I am looking at is either crazy or poorly written, because there is a mechanics change in here for this year that states that "primary responsibility for block/charge calls inside the lane that are going to the basket reside with the lead official". There is then an illustration on page 23 for anyone who has the book...in the illustration the dribbler gets past the primary defender on a drive and collides with a secondary defender in the lane...it states that "the lead will have primary responsibility since the contact occurs in the lane area and will signal a foul resulting in a block or charge". Now it is true that in this example the contact occurs in the L's primary, but the drive came out of T's primary it appears in the diagram and they are still calling it L's responsibility..additionally, nowhere does it say that the L will only have primary responsibility for contact in the lane "in C's primary" which leads me to believe that this would be the same if the contact occurred on the other side of the lane...anybody else have a different interpretation fo this?

It seems that in NCAA games I have watched, the C & T take far more latitude as far as how far up and back they work than what they teach you in camps - at least NF camps....usually in NF it is a step or two above or below the FT line for C, but some of these guys work halfway to the baseline as C sometimes...I suppose it comes back to get in the best position to see the play, makes sense...

I know I take far more latitude than many at C - depending on the type of offense being run. I like to be above the players on the wing, not below, and to do this at times I have to get more than two steps above the FT line extended. Not often, but I still do it.

I used to work below, but I found I couldn't keep an eye on secondary plays in my primary very well, and I often got straightlined on drives to the basket on the baseline side.

I also step quite a ways down in quick transition plays at the hoop - about halfway down the lane, though this isn't much more than 2 steps from the FT line extended.

Would 3 man in NCAA be anything like FIBA's three man?

I might have some info that could help if it is.

Cleefy

No idea...

I'm just amazed an assignor would give a 3 person varsity game to someone who it seems is not very familiar with it.

Good point.

If the original poster still needs help, I'll write some stuff up...

Well I suppose we all have to work our first at some point. Even if this person went to a camp this summer, that was probably 6 months ago at this point, other than going and watching games and studying the material, asking questions on this board is as good an option as any...

Just to clarify I believe that the OP is looking for help on NF 3-person, NOT NCAA 3-person....the NCAA 3-person topic sprung as a side-note from this thread....they are basically the same other than a few small differences, including the NCAA mechanics change that I noted (?)

We've generated 3 pages and only 2 responses actually address rotation. Rotation is live-ball movement (usually) initiated by the Lead. The Lead will move from one side of the lane to the opposite side. At that point, the former Trail official moves to the free throw line extended, becoming the new Center official; and the former Center official moves to approximately the 28' line and becomes the new Trail.

When should the Lead initiate a rotation? First in high school, we wait until all 10 players and all 3 officials are in the frontcourt before we rotate. We don't do that NBA stuff where they rotate as soon as the ball is over midcourt.

Second, we'll rotate when the ball moves to the Center's side of the court AND:

1. stays there for more than about 2 seconds.
2. there is also a post matchup (high or low post) on the Center's side of the court.
3. you anticipate that there will be a quick drive to the basket.

When should the Lead NOT initiate a rotation?

1. Before all 10 players and all 3 officials are in the frontcourt.
2. After a drive to the basket has started.
3. While a try is in the air.
4. When the offense is running a "weave" and you know that the ball is immediately coming back to your side of the court.

Also, the CENTER official can initiate a rotation when there is heavy pressure on the ball near midcourt on the Center's sideline. In order to officiate that play, the Center must be in the Trail position. So he/she should immediately move toward midcourt. The Lead official must recognize this and complete the rotation.

One thing I tell guys is that we don't want to leave the Center official with the ball AND a post matchup. The Center can handle a 1-on-1 drive to the basket, no problem. But it's much more difficult to officiate the matchup and also the post. So if you see that, then go help with the post play.

I'm sure there are others here who also have some helpful tips on this. I generally tell new guys that if you think you should rotate, then rotate. You can always rotate back. Eventually, you'll get a better feel for it. I do think that you CAN over-rotate (for example, in a weave offense with no shot clock); but generally, as long as you're not a ping-pong ball back and forth, just go and come back if you have to.

(Now, if you really meant that you wanted help with switching -- DEAD ball movement initiated because of a foul call -- then let us know and we can talk about that, too.)

You should be strong-side on drives to the hole a large majority of the time. If you are not, you are not getting ball-side nearly enough. Therefore, it should be somewhat rare when a player drives all the way to the hole from the weak-side, which should be handled by the C. On the strong-side, L should be getting the block/charge. The reason for the change is two-fold. First, a large majority of those block/charge calls occur due to secondary defenders, which is an L primary responsibility. The other reason is optics/perception: it looks better to everyone and is perceived as better when the lead makes that call, due to the proximity to the play. And yeah, I'm waiting for Captain Literal to say the same as when the drive comes from the C side, but read the first two lines of this.

To the OP: Get ball side when possible. If the ball is over there, and there are other players there too, get over, because the C cannot take the ball matchup and anyone else.

OK, but it IS a mechanics change right? That was my point that some others were disputing...my whole thing in all of this was just to make the point that when you are L and the action is coming from the opposite side, don't bail out on it, don't give up on it just b/c it isn't your primary. I agree with others that L should not be reaching across frequently, if he is, then he needs to get his behind over there more....but get wide as L and you can see everything going on, that way you are able to lend help to C on the rare occassion that you haven't rotated and he/she misses one...

There are lots of states where the only chance to use 3-person mechanics is in varsity games. It was like that in the last state I was in, unless you were smart enough to split 2 checks 3 ways and do 3-man like that.

I had one 3-person scrimmage before doing my first ever 3-person varsity game. So it's not unheard of. That state also didn't have much for high school camps, there isn't an association or assignors that really push camps or scrimmages, and many areas of the state will give varsity contests as early as an official's first year.

This is correct the lead picks up the secondary defender.

Last year our playoffs went to 3 for the first time. There were a lot of officials working their first ever 3 man in district play. I worked a District final with 2 guys who worked their first ever 3 man game 2 nights before. States and associations need to do a better job of getting officials experience with 3 man mechanics at the lower levels so they are ready for varsity.

First, I want to say thanks for all the replies...I don't have the opportunity to work 3-person crews that often so this is helpful when they do throw 3 man at me.

One thing I was advised as L...If you are going to switch sides and force the rotation, GO, don't hesitate, just go...don't get half way and then bounce back to where you were at (or ping-pong) as someone stated it...I guess I did that the firt game I worked 3-person :o

Question I have for you guys as L...One guy told me to stay about a foot off the lane lines when L...focus on the paint obviously....Sitting here seems to go against the idea of moving to get the best angles.....is this correct or should the L be moving (maybe not as much as L in 2-person) ?

Angles are more important than anything. Do what works for you. I tend to work deep and wide, and staying a foot off the lane lines is something I've never heard. I go as wide as I have to.

As to your first point about "GO", I agree 100%. I "close down" which means as the ball swings opposite I move close the lane line, but I don't enter the lane until I'm ready to rotate and then I go across to force the rotation. The only time I might go a couple steps into the lane then bounce back out is if I start to rotate and a shot goes up. You don't want to force a rotation during a try.

Just remember - go where you need to be to officiate the action. If the ball settles away from you and there is post action on that side, get over there sooner, not later. You'll get a feel for the offense and know when to anticipate post play, and when they're just swinging the ball to reverse it back.

Ping-pong is no good, but standing in cement is the other extreme. Someone earlier posted that the Lead should "mirror" the ball. That means that when the ball moves toward the C side, you "close down" -- move toward the C side -- to the lane line extended. This tells your partners you may be rotating. When the ball moves back toward the T's sideline, the Lead will back away from the lane, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the way to the 3-point arc, depending on the ball location.

No it isn't.

As has been said. The drive is officiated, and has been, with the T or C having the on-ball defender with L having secondary/help defenders.

Most B/C happen deep with that help defender. Lead ball-side has a great look at the offense leaving the floor and the guarding position of that help defender. Lead at close down, has a better idea of that help defender coming from their primary on a drive from C, so even without a rotation lead has the best look at the B/C.

The reason for the notation was:

One it's the way everyone was doing it and how it was being taught.

Two they hope it cuts down on blarges if T and C have hits and pushes on ball and lead only has the help defender and B/C.

There is also nothing in that notation that suggests that lead has the entire paint as you said eariler...in fact, what it says is EXACTLY what several people had already said and you disagreed with.

Ok, you've gotten everyone's 2 cents worth here are probably in info overload.

I'm a derivative guy, and learn best by watching others.

You have some time, go catch as many three whistle games as you can and get a feel for it.

I sent you a PM regarding a DVD I can burn for you........

Had my first three person in Dec...have my other varsity game Friday...weirdest thing for me was the decrease in calls that everyone makes. Overall, the same number of calls are made during the course of the game...it's just that YOU don't blow the whistle as much as there is another official. After my first game, I was thinking that I didn't blow the whistle as much...then I realized that with another official on the court...the calls are more spread out!

Can you explain then why it is called a "mechanics change" - do they typically put notations in a "mechanics change" section? Also the way it is stated says that "L has primary responsibility for blocks/charges INSIDE THE LANE"...as we both know L's primary is not the entire lane. Therefore is it a stretch to say that L has the primary responsibility for blocks/charges that occur outside of L's traditional primary? And relax getting all pissy already, I'm not "disagreeing" with anyone when it comes to the college mechanic, I'm not arrogant enough to assume that I have mastered it since I am new to it. All I am trying to do is determine if it is different from the NF mechanic, and understand how the CCA manual is written vs. how it is applied.....this whole thing goes back to the fact that L DOES need to reach across and help C at times both NF and NCAA, that was my whole point for bringing it up in the first place...

You said, incorrectly, that lead had ALL THE PAINT not primary responsibility on one particular call.

You then said it's what the manual said, incorrectly, because the manual said EXACTLY what several said that lead had the secondary defender which usually is B/C.

As I clearly stated in my last post...the change was added because THAT IS HOW EVERYONE WAS DOING IT AND TEACHING IT.:rolleyes:

Ugh chat boards can be frustrating....I think this took on a direction that was never intended, I don't recall saying that the "lead has all of the paint", but if I said it in that way, if you read back through, the point I was intending to make to tomegun was that L CAN and DOES help out C on action that is not in his/her primary, ie. across the paint. I used the NCAA mechanic to make that point and I believe it does support that point with this mechanic change/emphasis/ whatever you want to call it, even if I didn't describe it 100% correctly - recall I didn't have the manual yesterday, I just quoted it this morning...I don't disagree with any of you re: the NCAA mechanic, all I am trying to figure out is, is this really a difference from NCAA and NF whereby in NCAA, L helps out on the block/charge with the secondary defender? It seems like if L has the ability to do this in NCAA, then L would also have the ability to do this in NF...