QF1Y: Travelling Violation? --- With Video Goodness
 

I had my wife videotape one of my games, so I could see things like my posture and 'presence' on the court.

End of the game situation. Team A inbounds and passes the ball up towards the division line where defensive pressure causes the ball to be rolling on the floor. Player A1 almost loses ball out-of-bounds, but brings it back under control inbounds. (this is where that player becomes visible on the video)

Player A1 is on his knees with control of the basketball. He shifts his weight onto his right knee to pass to a teammate. In doing so, his left knee lifts off of the floor. I thought that in order for there to be a travel, A1 would need to be 'attempting to get up' which I did not feel that he was doing.

Let me know your thoughts....
YouTube Link

I guess that the follow up would be could that same player have a 'pivot knee'? ... lifting a knee so that his foot could then propel them around in a circle?

ps. Nice finish by Team A player just prior to buzzer!

I wouldn't call it.

The video plays in slo-mo? Very artsy, but kinda hard to concentrate on the action.

I've added a copy with real time and then slow motion.
 

How about this one:
link

Much better. I still wouldn't call it!

And you're right about the shot at the end. Very nice!

a. The play is perfectly legal.

b. There is no such thing as a pivot knee. Per 4-33 the pivot is specifically a foot. A player who gains control of the ball while not standing is governed by the rules which dictate what a player on the floor may and may not do. (4-44-5b and case book ruling 4.44.5 Sit B)

Use it to check your mechanics too.

1) You didn't have a ten second count going.

2) Ditch the "safe" signal.

You beat me to it.

For style points, don't have your arms dragging at your sides.

imo it is good officiating to not have a ten second count going here when it is impossible to have a ten second violation.

shows, to me, that you are into the game and understand the situation/what is going on.

:(
Disagree 100%. What if the timer fails to start the clock?
Always count. It provides definite knowledge for correcting a timing error.

Disagree completely. It's terrible officiating. If the clock isn't started properly, what "definite information" do you now have available to fix the screw-up?

Exactly, always have 10 second count going! It's very important if there happens to be a timing issue, especially in the last few seconds of a quarter.

Devil's advocate?
 

The way I see it, the only argument against this approach is say there is a count started when there is less than 10 seconds on the clock. Specifically, say 9.8s is on the clock.

Let's also say that you (or said official) is very consistent in their 10-second counts. IOW, they have already called 4 this game (or even 1 or more than 4), and I'll even say that they've called 2 on each team. In each case, the actual amount of time allowed for the ball to earn FC status before a violation was called was less than 10s, and around 9.1s. IOW, the covering official actually has a fast count.

In this case, the "5th" case, if you do not continue to "chop" 10-seconds as you have been doing, and call that same violation at 9.1s, then you are not being consistent, and IMHO, doing a disservice to the game.

No, I do understand that no two times will be exact, but it's important that they be consistent. If a 10-second count occurs earlier in the game with clearly only 9 seconds coming off the clock, then when 9.9s is on the clock, and you don't have a 10s violation, IMHO, the coach has reason to wonder about your consistency.

Edit: another argument is for definite knowledge of timing errors. :)

Well, there were 4.5 seconds on the clock when inbounding, so I turned my 10 second clock off.

Safe signal is going on the shelf.

I don't count when the BC count would start with less than 10 seconds on the clock. But I always look at the clock in such a situation so that I know that it's running.

I "count", but I don't *signal* the count. So, I still have "definite knowledge".

I'd count ten seconds (even though there's less than 10 seconds left in game) just to be consistent and for possible timing issues.

One other thing, I'd get a little closer to the ball when coming up the floor. I feel it's best to only be a step or two behind the ball coming up the court.

Concur...no real reason to have a "visible" count, but you should be counting for all the previously stated reasons.

Mybe not for you, but I"m still working on my credibility and image. If I"m visibly counting, then if I need to use my definite knowledge, everyone knows it's definite, and not just something I made up (which I've been accused of). If someone were to think my visible count when there's less than 10 seconds left shows I'm not aware of the game situation, they'd soon see that's not the case as I was right on top of any situation that might occur.

When I am trail and the clock has less than 10 seconds showing, I count but I use the "wrist flick" instead of the "full arm" count.

What's more accurate, counting in case the clock doesn't start or looking at the clock to make sure it has started?

Why not do both?

Player on two knees and lifts one knee and now only on one knee and stays that way while trying to pass - violation?

Always count!

Agree on the arms hanging by your side - does not look very athletic. Also agree on the "safe" signal.

Having a 10 second count when there is less than 10 seconds on the clock is asinine. If the clock doesn't start, you can address that issue on it's own -- but there is no reason to count when there is no way that you can have a violation! With 4.5 seconds on the clock, having a 10-second backcourt count makes you look stupid.

Finally, you can't see what happens with the player to get him on the floor. However, it looks like he is still dribbling and picks up the ball and passes it to another player before getting up = not a travel. If you go to the floor (with a knee) or get up from the floor while holding the ball, it is a travel.

Why do both?

If you know the clock is running, what possible purpose can there be for counting?

Speeding up plays
 

Does anyone know how to speed up utube videos? My imac is like watching the players running in peanut butter!

So was the basket good at the buzzer? Never saw a signal one way or the other.

By the way, I commend you for putting yourself through this scrutiny by everyone here and all the comments are, I'm sure, meant in a positive vein.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I "count", but I don't *signal* the count. So, I still have "definite knowledge".
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Not me. If I'm going to take time off the clock or possibly even declare the end of a quarter in such a situation, I want my count to show up on video. That way everyone can see it.

Hey, Good Point
 

The basket was good, but with 1.2 second or so still on the clock. Should I raise a hand on any shot less than say, 5 seconds? Or, only on shots that will be in the air as the horn sounds?

ps, i'll edit together a highlight reel of the few moments in the game that I was lookin' good!

My association wants a count, regardless of time left on the game clock - the "on-tape" issue is, I believe, the main reason. That, and they're sticklers about the NFHS Officials' Manual - and it doesn't say to do it only when there are more than 10 seconds left on the game clock.