traveling?
 

Is it a travel if a player gains control of the ball while one knee is on the ground and one foot (the thinker position) if he lifts his knee while the foot on the other leg remains planted?

please post rule for college and nfhs...

yes


NFHS:

4-44-5: A player holding the ball after gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.

ok is he considered to be on the floor? why can't i say the foot that is on the ground is the pivot foot? what about college?

Yes.
Pivot foot doesn't matter if any other part of the body besides the hands or feet is touching the floor.

NCAA has the same understanding.
 

We are not talking about gaining control of a ball and then falling. This is a player that gains control with one knee down and one foot. That foot should be able to be the pivot foot. So if the pivot foot isn't moved (the rule says if the pivot foot moves), why can't he stand?

I'm good with the NFHS rule. It's NCAA i'm having a hard time with.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Nevadaref
When a player rises to his or her feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. <strike>When a player falls to one knee while
holding the ball, it is traveling if the pivot foot moves.</strike>
(Rule 4-68.6 and 4-68.1)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I know what you are inquiring about. I highlighted the relevant sentence. You quoted an additional one that has nothing to do with the situation. Just take the one sentence above by itself and you have your answer. The NFHS and the NCAA have the same take on this play. It's illegal.

You opinion doesn't matter about what he should be able to do. The NCAA committee says that he can't stand. If he does, it's a travelling violation, period. That's it.

I'm not trying to inject opinion. If I am, sorry.

My question is: why would I consider A1 to be rising to his feet, when he started with a pivot foot?

He started with one knee on the ground and one foot. When he rose to his feet, it was traveling.

If they gain possession on the floor they have no pivot foot.

b. When one foot is on the playing court:
1. That foot shall be the pivot foot when the other foot touches in a
step;

A.R. 110. Is it traveling when a player (a) falls to the playing court while holding the ball; or (b) gains control of the ball while on the playing court and then, because of momentum, rolls or slides, after which the player passes or starts a dribble before getting to his or her feet? RULING: In (a), yes, because it is virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot when falling to the playing floor.

this indicates that a player can maintain a pivot while being on the ground. but nothing has explicitly said that this is a travel.

The part about rising to one's feet makes not mention of a pivot foot. When a player rises to his feet while holding the ball, it is traveling. Period.

When you said that the player should be able to do such and such, I took that as your opinion.

What you have to learn is that you must follow the defined concepts when officiating. These definitions form the heart of play calling.

You are mistaken that the player "started with a pivot foot." In fact, he does not have a pivot in this situation because he is by definition deemed to be on the floor since he gained control of the ball while touching the floor with something other than a hand or foot. Blindzebra just wrote this as well.

If you look in the NCAA rulebook for how a pivot is established, you will see that it only pertains to a player who is standing upright on his feet. When a player gains control while on the floor he is governed by a specific ruling. I posted that ruling for you already in this thread. The most important point to take from that is what JAR wrote:

That is if he already had established one. You are missing that point.

okay, so then you are saying that if you have already established a pivot foot, you may go down and come up from one knee at will so long as you don't move your pivot. correct?

The play in the OP is about a player gaining control of the ball while one knee is already on the ground and one foot ...

How about this situation:

A1 catches a pass ... left foot has been established as the pivot ... for whatever reason, A1 decides to drop to one knee (his right) while left foot remains stationary ... A1 then decides to stand upright again - removing his right knee off the ground ... legal or not?

Not debating this. Move on.

Thank you. You need to not worry about what you think I have to learn. Your first post stated it best. This is not explicitly covered in the rules.

NFHS - Traveling.

It is explicitly covered.

A player with a knee on the floor is ON THE FLOOR!

The rule explicitly states what a player may and may not do while on the floor.

If you can't understand that simple thing, your striped shirt may be better used working at your user name than on the court.:rolleyes:

That is an unfortunate consequence of an NCAA ruling which Mary Struckhoff authored a few years ago. I'm specifically talking about the going to a knee WITHOUT MOVING THE PIVOT. It started out as just applicable in the NCAAW game, but has now been included on the mens side of the written documentation (rulebook and casebook).

Since that time the NCAA has published the above posted A.R. 103 as it is currently numbered. It is my understanding that the directive to the officials on the court is to follow this and call a traveling violation. The key language is the "virtually impossible not to move the pivot foot" part.

So by the strictest theoretical interpretation of the rule, a player could do what you propose without traveling, but in practice the officials have been told to deem this a violation.

I'm sure that there have been other NCAA bulletins on this in the past few years. I'll check with some of the NCAA folks that I know and see what they provide in response.

How many freaking times does everybody have to post the very explicit freaking NCAA and NFHS rules that cover the freaking play? It's <b>FREAKING</b> traveling!!!!

Lah me........:rolleyes:

The NCAA seems to make a distinction between "falling to the floor" (travel) and "touching the floor with other than a hand or foot" (not a travel -- assuming the pivot foot doesn't move). Both of these situations are travelling in FED.

Rising from the floor, no matter how you got there or what body parts are touching, is travelling in both FED and NCAA.

Well put...I think that sums it up for all of us high school callers ... of course if you dribble throughout the entire process of going to the floor and coming back up - you are fine.

Thanks Nevadaref. We are doing the same thing in my conference. This is a question that came up a couple weeks ago at a NAIA Tournament I was working. The crew going onto the floor brought it up to my crew after we finished our game. My first instinct was traveling, so I got into the NCAA rulebook and casebook 2007 & 2008. After recognizing what you posted I decided to see what this forum could provide. (I think this forum is great for officials to discuss situations and interpretations.)

Other NCAA guys from our conference that work all over D1 upto and including WNBA interpret the rule that a player can go down to a knee and rise so long as the pivot isn't moved. But I wanted to know about starting in that position. It seems that starting in that position would be different than going to one knee. NFHS is easy on this one.

Thanks again and let me know if you come up with anything on your end.

Thanks Bob.

I think that is the conclusion that I have come to as well.