T or not??
 

I had a foul the other day....Coach is busting on me on the way to report..I lose track of who the foul is on.....I ask my partner for help...He can't help me ...I go to the table and no one there is for sure..So I tell them to mark it down as a team foul....I go to inbounds the ball near the teams bench that the foul was called....and I say Blue coming in....The coachs comment was ...Are you sure its blue coming in?? Surprised you can remember that???? Tor no t??? Thnaks

whack:d

might even be a WHACK! WHACK! depending on exactly what he was saying as I was going to report. :D :D

no T. since you're the one who created the situation, you've got to give him a little leeway....unless of course he screaming/yelling VERY loudly to embarrass you (then he's giving you no choice). just tell him "I may be a lot dumber than I look, but I am smart enough to remember that it's blue ball"...then laugh a little, administer the throw in, and don't let it happen again!

THis friend speaks my mind.

NO way. No way I'm saying to a coach, "I may be dumber than I look" Never, never, never.

Actually, even when I make a mistake, coach gets no leeway to yell like the OP. It's a whack without question. Period.

I just spent a minute or so looking for the exception in Rule 10. I couldn't find it. You know the one that coaches can be stupid cause the ref forgot a number.

Whack

I disagree - OP didn't create situation - coach did when he was already busting him while he was on way to report. Ok - maybe MidMadness should not have listened - but the coach created the situation and if it was enough to make an official lose track of who the foul was on it was most definately enough for whacking!

Depends on how loud and demonstrative. I agree with other post. Give a little leeway for screwup.

'OK coach, you've had your say'............any snappy retort from him/her, tweet.

How would you feel if your partner forgot a number, then compounded the problem by T'ing a coach for making a comment like that? Everyone seems to jump on the T wagon saying the coach was yelling. It just looks like a sacrastic comment with some merit to me. As long as it ends when play resumes, "Let it go, Louie."

If we were working together and you forgot the number, as your partner, I would probably say the same thing in a joking manner....would you WHACK me? C'mon...MidMadness created the problem - coaches talk/yell/gesture/motion to us all the time while reporting a foul, it's very rare that we forget the number - but it happens.

You SHOULD be embarrassed. You SHOULD be self-concious.

You SHOULD ALSO be mature enough to realize that you screwed up and be able to take a little criticism - you certainly would deserve it. What's wrong with saying: "Coach, you're right. I screwed up. Let's not make it worse than it already is." or "Yea, I really butchered that didn't I?". Instead I chose self-deprecating humor ("I know I'm dumber than I look....") which generally works well for me.

If you decide to T the coach, then you certainly are well within your authority to do so. However, keep in mind that it's also within your authority to admit a mistake when it occurs. IMHO, a T here does not make the game any better.

I personally don't see how a T compounded the problem - sits coach down and is the strongest warning that he should shut up and keep his sarcasm to himself.

IMO - I don't think OP would have forgotten the player # if it had not been for the coach. I also think that we "warn" coaches too much. We don't warn players the first time they push an airborne shooter to the floor - why should we allow coaches to get away with things they know are wrong?

If the coach made OP forget the number, then OP choked, period. When I see a quick T after a missed to controversial call, it tells me that the official is defensive and/or doesn't react well in stressful situations. It also causes the official to lose a ton of credibility with coaches, partners, and players. And it's a lot harder to earn back what is lost.

He ain't my partner! If you were my partner - I would hope you would at least wait until after the game to say something like that. A good partner would never say something like that on court even in a joking manner - in front of players/coaches etc EVEN if I had just had a brain fart and the coach had said nothing.

Agreed

I'll take that from the appropriate people at the appropriate place and time - and that is not on court by a coach who was "busting me on the way to report" :(

This whole post is dead on.

Many times one coach or the other think a call has been missed and becomes upset. The point is they don't have the right to be "busting you" on the way to report. I think you see most T's after some kind of call that appears to be controversial to someone - so do you mean we should only call a T for administrative reasons - like wrong number in the book? Otherwise is might appear that we are defensive and don't react well in the stressfull enviroment of a BB game?

IMO you are a brick short of a load on this one.

For anyone reading this post that is on the fence concerning this, don't listen to Oracle, Jeffpea or Fullor30. They are full of it. The OP said, "Coach is busting on me on the way to report."
I don't know how long the OP has been officiating, but I do know that from time to time we all forget a number. After the reporting is said and done, what the coach said was not questioning a call and it wasn't a comment made in any sporting manner. It was sarcastic only.
This is a super easy T and I will refrain from calling anyone who says what these three said a name. I'm really trying. :D

Apparently, the actions on the way to report weren't T-worthy. So, that's not a point of discussion here.

If you mess up, then you should take more than if you don't mess up. There's still a line that can't be crossed. Based on my mind's-eys view of the OP, I don't think the line was crossed, and I likely wouldn't T. I would address it. Several suggestions on how have been given.

:shrug:

Are you sure its blue coming in?? Surprised you can remember that

Bob, that isn't enough for a T?

Only in your rec leagues, Old School.

It's not often I agree with the "other side" but I would likely try to shut the coach down with something other than a technical. A technical here would be like throwing gas on a fire.

Real life example from the other night:

Partner called a foul the other night in the middle of traffic. I had the shooter but not the fouler (we were in the bonus). Partner reported the wrong number.

So, being it was a girls game, I stepped up and said softly to one of the likely candidates, "You know who that was on?" "Me, she said." Girls are usually honest in this position (guys, I wouldn't try this) and the coach didn't know I had asked (he probably did later, and I really don't care). I told my partner and he reported it. It was foul #4 on the player, and the coach started with my partner. Nothing over the top, but an "are you sure. I think you got the wrong player." Normally, it would've gone on a bit too long, but....

It looked bad, we didn't do our jobs, and that, my friends, is where the leash gets loosened at bit, for a very short time. Whacking him right there, right away, is almost the equivalent of baiting him for the technical.

Coaches have a vested interest in the game and they should expect certain things to go right, like us actually reporting the right person to the table. Reporting the wrong person, especially if that player is one of the more talented or is in foul trouble is not good. And that person ALWAYS is the wrong person, for whatever reason -- we never get the sub who just came in, will play 5 minutes, and has 5 fouls to burn.

I was working football three years ago and one of my crew members had an inadvertent whistle that cost the team 15 yards. I had to go to the head coach and explain his choices and he started right away. I stopped him and told him I'd let him vent for 30 seconds after he told me his choice, but that I wouldn't tolerate anything after that. If he didn't turn the page (as we as officials needed to), he was going to get flagged. Then I shut up and let him vent for 30 seconds. He knew better than to be profane and personal and just vented. After thirty seconds, I reminded him that it's over and now we're going to continue the game. And we all did. But I made sure I looked him in the eye and at least pretended to listen to every word he said.

I would recommend walking over to the coach, telling him that "I screwed up," but it won't help anyone if he tries to embarrass me or show me up and that if he wants to vent, I'll give him a few seconds as long as he doesn't show me up and that he turns the page.

I'm glad to see I'm not alone among "non-Old School" types.

I can let one remark like that go without even looking in his direction considering the circumstances. The crew DID screw up, after all.

I agree with this line of thinking. If I screw up, I am more inclined to take a little more, but you are absolutely correct, there's still a line that can't be crossed. If the OP happened to me, I probably would've try to inject some of my stale humor, or just tell the coach, you're right I screwed the pooch on this one and move on. I think you can maintain your credibility by admitting you may have been wrong. Now if you're constantly telling the coach you screwed up then you have bigger problems.

Agreed...........good way to handle it.

But what the coach said in your sitch is different from the OP. The OP was being loud, obnoxious, and then hit the ABS limit (imo) with a loud sarcastic show-me-up smart-aleck remark that had nothing to do with the missed number. I agree that if you can shut the guy down without a T, it should be done that way, and it may be that some folks could pull that off. I couldn't have, and I don't think anyone should feel that a T would be out of place in the OP.

Now if the coach says what he says in the OP so that everyone in the gym hears him, that's an easy one, WHACK. Now if the official inbounds the ball near the team bench and the coach is standing there and makes the remark to me, without yelling or raising his voice, and I know I screwed up, I will probably let him ride that one time.

That's a good clarification.

I can see both sides of this situation.

I don't know what the extent of "busting on me on the way to report" was, but if it was enough to distract me from the job at hand - reporting the foul - it needs to be dealt with. Each of us is going to have a different level of what is distracting.

From my reading of the OP, the coaches comments were enough to distract MidMadness. Now he has to delay the game a bit to talk to his partner, and the table, to try to get the correct number. This whole time, I'm sure the coach is being an angel on the sideline and patiently waiting to resume the game. :rolleyes:

MidMadness resolves the situation the best he can and prepares to resume the game, but coach can't resist one more shot to add to the situation he helped create in the first place! I don't have a problem with whacking him here.

I could also see not whacking him and dealing with the comment another way. Whatever path you choose, the coach has to know that the comment was inappropriate and the game is moving on.

Rainmaker, thank you for stating the obvious. It is so obvious that I don't know why this would be compared to what the OP said. I doubt this was said in a quiet enough tone that only the coach and the official heard it. If anyone, and I mean anyone, can hear it then I give a T.

I certainly don't have a problem with someone whacking a coach in this situation, but given my understanding of it, I'm probably just continuing on with the throw-in. The only reason I would T him is if the throw-in is so far away from the bench that everyone in the gym can hear his last comment. But if, as others have said, it's somewhat close to his bench, and it's just a snide remark between him and I, then yeah, I screwed up, I'll take the remark, and move on. But if he even brings us back to this situation ONCE the rest of the game, WHACK!

If I'd screwed this up, without the coach busting me on my way to report, I'd give him some leeway. Depending on how bad his comments were on my way to report, this is a possible T. He gets less rope due to his behavior.

Now, if it's a coach I've got a raport with, and he says it quietly in an obviously joking tone, I might respond with something self-deprecating. Not sure.

From the OP:

Sounds to me like it was very likely not a comment that was yelled across the gym to anyone. Take a little, laugh with the coach, and move on.

Where did it say the coach was laughing? It seems as though many would like to make every excuse for the coach in this situation. If you have lived a charmed life as an official, I can understand your feelings. However, if you've experienced high school and college basketball like I have more than likely this coach is getting a T. Even if one of the players heard it, this is high school basketball and the adults are supposed to set the example for sportsmanship. There is nothing sporting about this comment - the poster never said he had a history with this coach and he knew the coach was joking, he actually posted this for the opposite reason: he wanted to know should he have given the coach a T. Do we really believe in sportsmanship or does it only matter some of the time? You best believe, one player or more heard this and that is too much. Does the referee have backing by the rule book to call this T? Of course. Can the referee not call the T and possibly let unsporting behavior go? Yes. We all have to decide, but it pains me to think someone would call a T because a player is saying, "ball, ball, ball" to another player, but will let this go.

It doesn't. I'm saying that I would add the laughter. If I just jacked something up, I'm not going to try and cover it by whacking the coach. I'm also not going to let a coach busting me in the chops on the wy to report cause me to forget the number. Dealing with that is a whole other concept.

Personally, if I've gotten to the table, forgot the number, and my partner(s) can't help me, I'm going to the floor captain. "Can you help me out with who that last foul was on, cause if you can't help me, I'm hanging it on you." Schtick happens, and yes, we all at times forget something. But c'mon, no need to be so uptight out there when a coach is ribbing you.

I guess that is another way of saying I'm going to ignore unsporting behavior because I need to grow a crop. :D

I like to laugh and joke with the best of them, but I'm not going to turn an unsporting matter into a laughing matter so I can say I've only given a coach X amount of Ts. Now I see how people call so few they can keep track. You shouldn't be so uptight about calling an earned technical foul. There is a difference between someone saying something to you when you mess up and being a jerk, maybe you should learn it.

Wow.

This is an easy T call.

So what some are saying is that the official calls a foul and the behavior of the coach causes the official to lose focus and forget the number.

The coach then gets a free shot because the official "screws up"?

So the official should mess up not only the number...which the coach caused...and then screw up the blatantly insulting comment by ignoring it?

Geesh, no wonder those of us that do take care of business have to.:rolleyes:

That is exactly what they are saying. You are probably like me and stick out like a sore thumb. I would T this up without giving it a second thought. My bad, the only second thought would be if the coach said something else to get a second T. :D

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I've given my share of Ts and then some. My fellow officials will often call me John "T" Anderson I've been known to throw so many.

As Dr. Naismith once said, "When in doubt, toss him out."

OK - he probably never said that, but it's good advice anyway. :)

Is it what he said that you're giving him a T on, regardless of the situation that happened before, or the tone he said it? It appears that you are not and will not take any of those factors into consideration, and you're whacking him on his words.

That's a technical foul...not to sure what other rules say but Fiba has this:

38.3.2 A technical foul by a coach, assistant coach, substitute or team follower is a foul for disrespectfully communicating with or touching the officials, the commissioner, the table officials or the opponents, or an infraction of a procedural or an administrative nature.

It sure sounds to me like he was being disrespectful, denigrating your abilities as an official, interfering with your attempt to report by badgering you about the call as you report, being sarcastic and insulting following the inbound call...sounds to me like he's begging for it.

So it is disrespectful for the coach to ask a legitimate question and comment without raising his/hers voice, after witnessing you forgetting what just took place less then 60 seconds prior?

Please don't get me wrong, like I and many have said, if we screwed up we may give a little in this situation, but we all have lines that we have to draw and the coach can't cross that line ever, regardless of what takes place in a game. IMO in the OP the coach didn't cross MY line, especially if I just screwed up and he was commenting on it. And iF he made that comment like I pictured in the OP (throw-in was in front of his bench), then he's probably going to get a pass this time.

How in the world can you even begin to consider what this coach said a "legitimate" question??? :eek: There is no way that coach was asking the question for clarification purposes...he was being a smart-a$$. Now if that doesn't cross your imaginary line in the sand, so be it...but please don't try to explain it as a "legitimate" question.

For the record, I probably wouldn't have T'd the coach in the original situation. My response would have been along the lines of "OK, I deserved that one. But that's the only shot you get to take at my crew tonight coach." And then away we go...

This whole thing begins when the coach was ALREADY a problem when the official was going to report. To follow up with another display of rather unsporting behavior would have gotten an instant T from me. I know we are talking about a coach - but even he has to be smart enough to know that a comment like that is grounds for the T - regardless of what happened or didn't happen prior to the comment. An official being berated and forgetting a # is not an excuse or license to make unsporting comments to an official. Period!

Through this forum I've seem we all have a different tolerance for behavior that is unsporting. If a coach asked if I was sure which team is inbounding the ball in a respectful manner, I would reassure him/her that I had the correct team. As an official I would never say to a coach: you sure your team knows how to inbound a ball? that would be disrespectful and obnoxious. If a coach is trying to make me or my partner look bad ...thats unsporting behavior. I don't give passes to coaches for being sarcastic, disrespectful or unsporting. I guess my tolerance leans to zero. I am happy to say I have the respect of most all coaches I ref based on a consistent standard of behavioral expectations. I am sure many don't like it, but they do respect it. It also saves me a ton of flak in games. I know I'm an ogre!:mad:

I bet you won't forget that again!

Whack, his behavior is not excused...

What a crock of spit.

Legitimate question? Are you freaking kidding?

The only legitimate question that coach could have asked was, "Can you just charge that as a team foul?"

Comments and remarks disguised as a question are not legitimate questions.

The length that some will go to avoid giving out a warranted T is disgusting...it really is no wonder why officials that uphold the rules of sportsmanship and expect coaches and players to abide by them have so much trouble, when officials allow coaches to run roughshod over them.

It's legitimate because he asked, are you sure it's blue's ball? You just forgot who fouled who less then 60 seconds ago. Yes it probably was to be a smart-a$$. But this official just had a momentary lapse of a fundamental referee mechanic, calling and reporting a foul? We've all been in this situation, so I'm speaking on experience. If the coach was riding me to a point that I forgot what just happened, and my partner can't help me out (he's probably thinking the same thing the coach is, what the heck you calling), then chances are I just might've called an iffy call. Again, I wasn't there, I am speaking on what I may have gone through early in my career. Now with all that said and the coach makes that question and comment to me, I'm commenting on it and moving on. I am not T'ing him up right there on that spot. Now if we've been up and down the court once or twice aftwards, and he's still on this same line of comments and questions, then it's a problem, and I will deal with it with my nice index to index T that I've worked so hard on perfecting.. :D

If the coach is busting this officials balls so bad on the way to report, why not stop the coach right then and there, STOP sign up, and tell the coach no more! Then when you forget the darn # you have a frickin excuse. But to go from spot of the foul to the table and forget and blame the coach because he's yapping in your ear and you're letting him, is a poor excuse.

Ah, geeze, bz, why did you have to go and agree with me? Now I've got to have weeks and weeks of counselling...:D

I agree with this.

The official doesn't need an "excuse" to T the coach in this case. Coach earned it all by himself.

Listen, I used to throw Ts out like they were candy, but I live in the real world. I am going to ask myself how much I contributed to the situation and use that in my analysis of whether a coach has one coming. Along with the question I always ask: Will this help this game?

I simply don't see it. Even if others could hear it, forgetting the number is what caused all of this and an official needs to know that there are times you take more from a coach as long as you can shut it down quickly.

And my opinion is that too many officials on this forum live in the world of black, white, and Emily Post. Expecting a coach not to get emotional and simply ask a question like the one you propose is asking way too much.

Again, I will give the warranted technicals out. I've been blackballed from a conference because I slid in and whacked a coach who gave a gesture to my partner's back (and he's still working the conference, BTW).

But forgetting the number of the fouling player is a whole different level of official error for which we have no real legitimate excuse other than a loss of focus (which I've done before, so I'm not preaching) and if you can't "not hear" one sarcastic comment directed at you right after that, well, I don't know what to say.

I suppose it depends on the manner in which it's said, but I can't see myself calling a T there. I might choose to make a self-depreciating joke like, "I learned colors in kindergarten coach but never did get too good at math." We look bad if we forget a number. I think we look even worse if we allow it to affect the game even more by adding to that mess with a T. JMO.

Well said!

No it's not. You (and I) wouldn't T the coach for it, but it is in no way, shape, or form a legitimate question. It's a smart-a$$ comment from a pi$$ed-off coach.

I agree with this 100%. The real problem is, the descrption is second-hand. All this forum can do is talk about the different ways to handle it, and let OP make his own decision n the future. Nobody is right or wrong.

Let's see here....

Official calls a foul. On the way to report the coach is out of control enough that his behavior causes/contributes to the official losing focus and forgetting the number. Official fixes the problem as best he can. Coach follows up his previous bad behavior with a snide remark, obviously questioning the official's ability.

Yeah, I can see why so many people here are so eager to excuse this coach's behavior. The official just screwed up so badly that the entire game is probably going to hell and it's all the official's fault. Who knows, they may just cancel basketball as an interscholastic sport because of this. So yeah, probably better give the coach one more pass to make sure he's got a complete set of them.

After all, we wouldn't want to actually address the coach's bad behavior. That would require somebody to "raise a crop." Hell there's enough apologists here that somebody could make a killing raising 80 acres of them and selling them here.

Oh, in case I have offended any of you...I was only ribbing you. Or was it just asking a legitimate question. :rolleyes:

Nope, it is legit. Some of you will make any excuse to keep from giving a T while some of you just don't think this scenario warrants a T. For the former group, I think you should think about your officiating career because you are doing the game no good. For the latter group, we can disagree, but I would wonder what is crossing the line with you.

I think "growing a crop" has officially became part of our vocabulary on the board. :D I tell you what, if I was a coach, I would have my way with some of the officials on here. I would be one of those coaches who might not say one thing the in itself is bad, but I would make things add up in such a way that you wouldn't realize how brutalized you were until you were half way home. I'm sorry, but I just don't think some officials get it. Like I said, some officials (like Rocky) get it, but don't choose to call it in this situation. Others just don't realize that there is about a 1% chance of this being delivered in a way that doesn't warrant a T. Oh, well.

who the hell said it was controversial?

I'm in your court on this one too, Rich.

Sometimes it's ok to be deaf. I used to dish out T's like candy when I was doing sub-varsity but not anymore. Either I don't hear as much as I used to, communicate much better with coaches, have gotten more established in the area or stuff doesn't bother me like it used to.

I think in the original post it's somewhat of a 'had to be there.'

wow...I go away for a couple of hours and this forum spends 5 pages on a situation that has no right or wrong answer and really is a "you had to be there" scenario.

We would all be better served if we got together at a watering hole and, hearing the details and clarifications from the OP first hand, could hash this out. People are assuming way too many "facts not in evidence".

The original question was "T or Not?"....based on the OP, I said no. Some agree and some disagree. Can we all please move on to an exceedingly more important topic....the POE on uniforms....:)

Hey guys, just wanted to post something on this for a second.

In my opinion, whether or not this was a T is completely dependent on the situation...so, was the coach

a) Asking a legitimate question
b) Joking
c) Being a smart-***

The answer can not be "A", this is obvious to anyone. "Surprised you can even remember that" is not the way legitimate questions are asked. It also, very (very) likely is not "B", the original poster would probably not have posed the question on here if it was. And considering the coach was just furious during the foul before, I find it hard to believe he'd be happy-go-lucky soon afterwards.

Which leaves us to answer "C", being a smart-***. So here's what the 5 pages of debating have been about:

Does the Coach have the right to throw out an insulting and demeaning comment based on a referee's human mistake of forgetting a number?

In my opinion, no...it does not. The coach deserves a technical....

AND FINALLY, one more thing I'd like to add, let's assume that you were thrown the ball from one of the players and instead of catching the ball...you completely miss it and it drops and rolls to the ground....does that mean both coaches have 1 "free & demeaning insult" each? So each time you mess up the coaches get a "get me out a technical" card?

If they were joking, then you obviously wouldn't whack them....it's all good-hearted and fun. But THIS COACH IN PARTICULAR was not joking, he was trying to be insulting, and that is most definitely a technical foul.

Hey, I worked that game with you and it cost him more than 15 yards. It cost him a first down and he ended up punting. The snap was bad and they turned the ball over on downs near their goal line and Monroe went in to score. I was on his side of the field and he was riding me all night because of that. BTW, do you still work the Badger. Mr. Rice said we'd never work their again. I haven't but of course I moved twice since then. I remember it well...

Roger