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-   -   End of game "let them play" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/40503-end-game-let-them-play.html)

Chess Ref Thu Dec 20, 2007 04:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick
I agree with regard to new/rookie refs that it's hard to put air in the Fox.
I used newer/younger to describe 2-4 year officials that are starting to get into their books and are now soaking up "all the information" (knowing all the rules), but have not yet become familiar with incidental contact and flow interupters that don't need to be called. ;)

Hey I resemble that remark.

Though in my defense I have made great strides with incidential contact and not being the game interrupter guy. But I still have my moments.;)

mick Thu Dec 20, 2007 04:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chess Ref
Hey I resemble that remark.

Though in my defense I have made great strides with incidential contact and not being the game interrupter guy. But I still have my moments.;)

Ah, but yer ahead of the game, because you recognize it and cuz yer Here ! :)

Mark Padgett Thu Dec 20, 2007 05:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick
I don't think Padgett was advising one way or another, I believe he was just wanting folks new be aware that once we deviate from the rules which advantages one team, then we are creating an equal and opposite disadvantage toward the opponent. I don't think it's even a 1/2-step off base.

Thanks, Mick. Take a cookie out of petty cash. :)

just another ref Thu Dec 20, 2007 05:19pm

I once gave a warning, then a technical foul, to a defender for leaning over the line up to his armpit on a throw in with one second left in a one point game. The offended school called my assignor to complain, saying that I cost them a chance to win the game, even though this school did not even use our association. First, about their "chance to win the game." The game had seemed out of reach, a double digit lead in the last 3 minutes. Then the visitors made a couple of steals and threw in a couple of shots, including a 3 with less than 5 seconds. The throw in was deflected out of bounds near the division line with 1 second on the clock. A 6'5" guy is defending with his hand right over the thrower's head. I felt that I had no choice. If I don't make this call, I'm giving the school in question the only small chance they might have had by forcing a 5 second count or a turnover. The coach told me later that the kid did not even know what the technical was for. (YOU'RE HIS COACH, TEACH HIM THE RULES!)
This was about 4 years ago. A couple of weeks ago, I was at this same school. We were discussing various rules, including this one. There was a guy there, who was an assistant coach when this thing happened, I think. He commented that it was "....chicken to call this in the last minute when it hadn't been called the whole game." I don't know if he knew he was talking to the offender or not. I said nothing, but thought, as loudly as I could, "Guess what, nutball, the play had not occurred to be called until the last minute!"

Having said all this, I agree with Rainmaker's philosophy of adjustment at the end of a blowout at lower levels. The exception to this is a varsity boys game that the outcome has been decided and the players still have issues to settle among themselves. Often guys don't care if they foul out, so the play gets more physical, so we must protect them from each other. Then they start releasing early looking for dunks, and their is great potential for one to land on his head.

Back In The Saddle Thu Dec 20, 2007 05:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainmaker
You know he's not saying that, BITS, but the clarification might be helpful for some readers.

No. I realizing he's not saying that. But occassionally I run across the odd official who takes this philosophy too literally. An official who calls fouls that should be passed on because, "By not calling it I'm depriving the other team of getting to the bonus." Our decision making should be restricted to was it a foul/violation or wasn't it. We can't get into the realm of analyzing how not calling something would negatively impact the other team.

See everything; call what matters. Not See everything; and call it because if you don't the other team won't benefit from the strict application of the rules.

mick Thu Dec 20, 2007 05:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Thanks, Mick. Take a cookie out of petty cash. :)

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/mu.../300px-067.jpg

Me like cookies, cuz cookies is so "yum"!

Jurassic Referee Thu Dec 20, 2007 08:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
An official who calls fouls that should be passed on because, "By not calling it I'm depriving the other team of getting to the bonus." Our decision making should be restricted to was it a foul/violation or wasn't it. We can't get into the realm of analyzing how not calling something would negatively impact the other team.

See everything; call what matters. Not See everything; and call it because if you don't the other team won't benefit from the strict application of the rules.

Yup, I agree with that.

Now, could you explain how you can advocate the exact opposite in another thread? You know, the one where you think that it's good "game management" to even up fouls.

Back In The Saddle Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Yup, I agree with that.

Now, could you explain how you can advocate the exact opposite in another thread? You know, the one where you think that it's good "game management" to even up fouls.

There is no thread where I have advocated evening up fouls. I have never suggested that if there are 10 fouls on one team there should be 10 on the other. Unless, of course, you have a different definition of evening them up.

SMEngmann Fri Dec 21, 2007 03:49am

The one thing that is lacking in this thread is the following simple philosophy: make calls that fit the game. In other words, don't change the way you've called the game for 30 minutes in the last 2 minutes. If you've let the game be physical and let the guards use their hands all game, then you call a handcheck at a critical time in a close game, you're gonna get in trouble because you've now changed the way you're calling the game. Same thing on illegal picks, palming and stuff like that, if you've let borderline plays go early on, you almost have to continue to stay on that side at the end of the game because that's the game the players and coaches have adapted to. I think the bottom line, that a lot of people are missing is that it's not necessarily the last 2 minutes that get you in trouble, it's the rest of the game that sets it all up. If you do a poor job for 30 minutes, you cannot try to make it up in 2 minutes. This doesn't mean "let them play" in the last 2 minutes, it means call the game that you've established and don't change it at the end.

In regards to the T situation that was described, I think you should consider what you could've done differently to avoid a T in a one point game for violating the plane. You could give the warning loudly and clearly, have it announced and make sure the player knows before the inbounds play. If nobody knows why the T was called, in my opinion, you as an official did not manage the situation well. By rule correct, but not necessarily right. Make sure that everybody in the gym knows what happened and why it happened when you call that T in that situation. Just my opinion, but I think it'll save a lot of grief.

just another ref Fri Dec 21, 2007 04:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
The one thing that is lacking in this thread is the following simple philosophy: make calls that fit the game. In other words, don't change the way you've called the game for 30 minutes in the last 2 minutes. If you've let the game be physical and let the guards use their hands all game, then you call a handcheck at a critical time in a close game, you're gonna get in trouble because you've now changed the way you're calling the game. Same thing on illegal picks, palming and stuff like that, if you've let borderline plays go early on, you almost have to continue to stay on that side at the end of the game because that's the game the players and coaches have adapted to. I think the bottom line, that a lot of people are missing is that it's not necessarily the last 2 minutes that get you in trouble, it's the rest of the game that sets it all up. If you do a poor job for 30 minutes, you cannot try to make it up in 2 minutes. This doesn't mean "let them play" in the last 2 minutes, it means call the game that you've established and don't change it at the end.

well said

Quote:


In regards to the T situation that was described, I think you should consider what you could've done differently to avoid a T in a one point game for violating the plane. You could give the warning loudly and clearly, have it announced and make sure the player knows before the inbounds play. If nobody knows why the T was called, in my opinion, you as an official did not manage the situation well. By rule correct, but not necessarily right. Make sure that everybody in the gym knows what happened and why it happened when you call that T in that situation. Just my opinion, but I think it'll save a lot of grief.
Perhaps I did not adequately describe the play. The whole thing took place right in front of the bench of the team that got the T. I blew my whistle, announced the warning to both benches and the table, and it was properly recorded. I actually expected the coach to complain about the warning, but he didn't. On the contrary, he nodded and said quite calmly, "Yep, that's right." But, seconds later, when his player did the exact same thing, the T was called and the bench came unglued. The reason: "You just don't call that." The reason the player did not know what had been called was not because of lack of clarity on the warning, but because he had never heard of the rule, because nobody calls it around here.

SMEngmann Fri Dec 21, 2007 04:11am

Well in that case, nice job, you did all you could.

Scrapper1 Fri Dec 21, 2007 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMEngmann
The one thing that is lacking in this thread is the following simple philosophy: make calls that fit the game. In other words, don't change the way you've called the game for 30 minutes in the last 2 minutes.

Missing? :confused: That's exactly what I said on the first page of the thread.

Quote:

You think I'm calling the first illegal screen of the game in the last 2 minutes? No way. We've clearly let the borderline screens go all game. I'm going to call one now? Uh-uh. If there's a blatant illegal screen that bumps a guy 5 feet off the court to free up the shooter, then I'm grabbing that one.

Bearfanmike20 Fri Dec 21, 2007 09:40am

I will call the game the same all the way through unless its getting too physical, in which case I will tighten up.

mick Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20
I will call the game the same all the way through unless its getting too physical, in which case I will tighten up.

Well, you are not changing your game, if you tighten up a little on the front end of the contest. Then, the calls for getting too physical won't surprise anyone on the back end of the contest.

Bearfanmike20 Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick
Well, you are not changing your game, if you tighten up a little on the front end of the contest. Then, the calls for getting too physical won't surprise anyone on the back end of the contest.

Point taken. :o


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