You make the Call
 

Okay,

Had a BV game last night and here is the skinny:

Time running out on the clock, A1 takes a 3 point attempt, A2 pushes B1 while the ball is in flight, literly plowes him out of the paint. Tweet, I have a whistle on A2, the 3 point basket is good and Team B is in the bonus. So, we go and shoot the 1 and 1 on the other end. I get in the locker room and the R is pissed that I had a whistle on that call and states that since there was 4.9 left on the clock, I should have let that one go. I told him that it was a total dislodge and put B1 at a disadvantage. Am I wrong for making such a call??? Comments.....

I would have made the call.

I don't think that because there is only 4 or 5 seconds left in the game that we should "let things go." I think it's bad practice, but that could be because I'm trying to call everything I can...

I think that your R is in need of a proctol exam because that is obviously where he has his head.

Please continue to officiate properly without regard to the amount of time remaining or the score.

Edit: Sorry I left out two words.

Agree 100%.

While I agree with this, recognize that whether a shot is good and the location of the rebound if it isn't can influence whether the contact is a foul. Some contact is so egregious that it will be a foul even if the shot is good -- that may have been the case in your play.

You should understand that some officials like to take the path of least resistance. Honestly, that path is in the stands or at home in front of the TV. You will often have situations where I like to say, "You have to get dirty." Don't worry about it, the last thing you want to do is have something bad happen or have a coach send a tape to your assigner pointing out something that was obvious and wasn't called.

Did this call have an impact on the final score?

Please point me to the section of the rule book that states with 4.9 or less on the game clock, fouls should not be called. ;)

Nope. But it was a very obvious foul.

I've got a foul too. Good call, good administration.

You certainly wouldn't be wrong...we don't leave the court with 5 seconds left in the game so we should be willing to call what we need to no matter how much time is left. But in echoing Bob's statement, it might be beneficial to be just a half-second more patient and determine if the ball goes in and if it doesn't if an advantage is being gained. From your description though, it sounds like pretty solid contact. In this situation I would say you probably need to get it. You can have a great game ruined by a hard foul in the last couple of seconds which has the potential to lead to an injury, technical foul or worse a fight. Work the game until the buzzer and in doing so always be cognizant of the game situation and advantage/disadvantage situations.

If the ball went in how is B1 at a disadvantage?

Speculation on my part and I know it doesn't answer your specific question.

But it may have to do with the temperature of the game. A contentious game between rivals and B1 may retaliate if there is no whistle?

OK I have a question.
Did you wave off the made three point basket because of the foul on A2? Then go to the other end and shoot your 1 &1.

He better not have. :eek:

But OP did say "Tweet, I have a whistle on A2, the 3 point basket is good and Team B is in the bonus." so it appears he did count the 3-pointer.

Good question! Would you have waived off the 3 pointer?

While this may be true he did say B1 was put at a disadvantage...and while we're really drifting off topic that's gonna be a pretty special case to call the foul with 4.9 seconds left if the idea was to keep the game in control.

btw I'm not saying the foul may or may not have been good, just questioning what he said about B1 being at a disadvantage. I do agree there are times the game needs a whistle that has little to do with advantage/disadvantage.

The ball was in the air, then came the whistle. The 3 point basket was counted. There is no team control while the ball is in the air for a try.

The disadvantage came with when B1 was pushed out of his spot across the paint......

And because of that B1 .... what? Couldn't get the rebound?

No. The foul on A2 was neither a player control or team control foul as there is no team control on a try for goal.

If the ball is in the air on a try, then the try counts even if there is a foul on A.

Bottom line is, everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor, if said person is driven out of that spot, its a foul.

What is A2 going to do with B1's spot in this situation? Deflect the ball to the baseline after it goes through the net? If there's no advantage then let it go, unless, as I said before, it's more of a takedown and it's going to make the game end ugly.

Rob -

Just my two cents worth since I wasn't there.

In the college arena it probably would have been let go because of the score, time remaining, and the fact that players at that level are usually allowed (and can handle) more contact.

With that said, at the high school level (and yes in our area we have AAA schools playing at very high levels) I started including a statement in my pre-game that we would referee the game all the way to the ending buzzer. I included this because I have had more than one game go to pieces in the waning minutes and seconds because the officiating got loose after the game had been decided and there was still time on the clock.

If the ball was still in flight at the time of whistle, there still is a chance at a rebound. Which is why A2 pushed, isn't it?

It looks like the displacement on this play was sufficient to draw the whistle, even if the shot went in.

I will say last week I had a similar call I regreted. Rebounding foul on the "shooting team," three point shot fell in just as I blew the whistle. This wasn't nearly so obvious, though, and the displacement was minor. I should have held for a second, but....

Nice!

So here is my next timeout conversation:

Hey girls, we're down by ten with 8 seconds left...Molly, you get a free shot at B2 without a chance of a foul call.

I don't think so....I agree with OP's call

This is entirely different from what we're discussing - is B1 at a disadvantage in this play?

Some of us (including me) would say no regardless of the time left on the clock, since the ball went in.

To take that as justification to tell your players to go out & assault someone is silly.

If there is no advantage gained (which there isn't if the basket is good), then let it go. Unless it's a pretty significant foul.

I don't like to let anybody get away with a significant foul in the waning seconds just because the game is about to end. That's just giving somebody a free shot at his opponent.

I suppose you could but that would mean you went against the rules.

I think we take this advantage/disadvantage concept; philsophy; criteria too far when it comes to making the proper call regardless of how much time is on the clock. The OP made a call which is very clear some DO NOT HAVE THE GUTS to make. :mad:

Assignor: I seen the game; good game until towards the end there was a foul which should have been called. (Displacement) POE

Official: Yeah, I was applying A/DAD because there was only 4.9 seconds left to play in the game.

This would go over well.

I understand where CoachP is coming from. To be able to identify that when it's close to closing time( game ending) some official(s) just wants to get the game over with and go home. This is the area of the game in which officials need to be more attentive. The closing seconds of a close game. Every officials should manage the game from opening whistle to final horn and then observe the hand shakes at the end. :D

In the OP close game, a physical play happen DISPLACEMENT which is a Point of Emphasis this year. Great call!!!

Rook, there are no absolutes in this racket. There sureasheck might be circumstances where the appropriate call is a no-call. And there also might be instances where an assignor will give you hell for making the call.

That's what Dan is saying. Fwiw, I agree with him.

You would if you were Bobby Petrino! ;)

Reference, please. And be sure to include 4-Incidental Contact.

Now, that said, we had two calls much like the OP in tonight's game. We also had several "no calls" when the "block out" wasn't as severe.

That's fine, I didn't expect you to agree with me. I was saying DISPLACEMENT is a POE this year. If an assignor have a problem with enforcing a POE then thats a problem (IMO) without regards of how much time is left in the game.

FWIW, according to the OP, the foul occurred while the ball was in flight. From the way I read the post, the push/displacement thus occurred prior to the ball entering the hoop. If this is the case, then the official would have no idea of the advantage/disadvantage of the ball going in when he observed the foul. IMO, if the contact warranted a foul, with the ball still in the air, cracking the whistle is the right move.

Normally, on a small push (very little displacement) like this, if there's no rebound, there's no call. If the displacement is significant, it's often best to get it, especially early in the game.

This is when a patient whistle comes in handy. Sort of like letting the hack go at the top of the key because the ball handler played through it and had a layup.

Assignors may also have a problem with officials who don't understand that displacement can be incidental contact too. That would be the officials that don't comprehend what rule 4-27-3 is trying to tell them.

Rule 4-27-3--"Similarly, contact which does <b>not</b> hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements should be considered incidental".

Just because you have "displacement" doesn't mean that the displacement will <b>always</b> be a foul. It will be a foul <b>sometimes</b>. That's all I'm trying to say.

We've had numerous threads where posters espouse the virtues of officials having a patient whistle and also seeing a play out. If you do have a patient whistle and see this play out, and the ball does go in, and the player displaced is immediately able to resume their normal offensive or defensive duties, and if the contact was not rough or excessive, should a foul be called? In my opinion, in that particular case, no. Note the "in my opinion".

Btw, it's not really a good idea to try and back up your own view by saying that assignors agree with you, unless you are an assignor and you also know that the great majority of assignors also hold that view.

Btw, fwiw the POE that you are referencing specifically is concerned with 2 situations- post play and screening- where the displacement is also definitely putting an opponent at a disadvantage.

I agree, boxing out, incidental contact, etc is all going on both ways during the course of the game.....

But the OP quoted above??? "Pushes and plows" sounds so close to intentional, that at a minimum, should be called, regardless of time/score.

Now we are back to that Official you all despise,
"Well, last nights official let it go..." or "Well, last nights official called it..."

(I won't quote the entire displacement section. This is the last sentence and basis for my discussion. "When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or backing in it is a foul." It doesn't state you should have a patient whistle or see the results of the play in order to penalize appropiately. It's a FOUL!!!

Jurassic Referee, I understand all the principles, concepts which are being discussed. I just don't agree with them. If an official is officiating off ball like he/she is suppose to do. They will not know if an attempt is success or unsuccessful in order to penalize something that occurred in their PCA. That's my point.

I totally agree. I think Bob and Dan was trying to get the OP to see this. My thing is if it's not a complete take down and it is a classic backed or pushed him off of his rebound spot, I would wait to see if there was going to be a rebound before I make the call. A little patient whistle here and we're walking off the court in 4 seconds. Now we have to go to the other end and another opportunity to prolong the game and have more crap put into it. The 4.5 seconds can now take about 2-3minutes. (B1 makes his FTs, and they foul immediately, we go down shoot for A1, he makes two, but A2 dislodges the B1 in anticpation of a rebound on the 2nd FT and our OP calls the foul because he wants to be consistent, so we do it all over again, etc etc.. all hypothetical of course)

I agree with you to an extent. But the off-ball official should have knowledge of the status of the ball, even if she's not really watching closely. Off-ball officials MUST know if there's a shot in the air, whether it goes or not and so on. When a foul is a gotta-get, then ya gotta-get it no matter where the ball, how much time is left, or whatever. But the A/D thing gets stretched a little further than normal when there's a shot in flight, imo. It can't hurt to wait a half second and see if there's really any reason to call something, when it's not 3 feet of displacement, or knocking someone on their @ss. I think the POE is regarding the more obvious calls, and not the maybe stuff.

Juulie, what's the mechanic for that? Is this it? :confused:

http://www.sd72.bc.ca/timberline/med...ach%20Out.JPEG

HAHA... very true. :)

I was just attempting to bring out why the basket counts.

We're not talking about taking your eyes out of your primary and following the flight of the ball, but you absolutely have to know the status of the ball, regardless of where you are at and what is going on in your primary. This includes whether or not it is going in. You may not be able to tell with 100% certainty that it will drop but you should have a good idea. If it goes in you need to know in the event your partner(s) need your help and if it doesn't you should be anticipating where the rebound is going to go in order to get a better look. I'll admit that it's a skill that takes time to develop, but I believe it's a very necessary one. To me it's like the difference between looking a couple of seconds ahead when you're driving and just seeing the break lights in front of you or looking a few more seconds ahead and seeing the wreck three cars in front of you and being able to stop in time.

Interpretation, this is what this comes down to. Individual interpretation.

Incidental contact I agree that advantage/disadvantage principles be used.
Was it a game management call? Had there been tension between the players?Would you have made the same call at the start of the game?As an evaluator this is what I would be asking.If yes to these points or if the ref offered these explanations to me then all good