How long before your first T to a coach?
 

I have just 2 years of experience, so I really enjoy reading members' accounts of situations and rulings. The "T" stories are especially interesting to me because it's helped me understand how you veterans handle ugly situations, what deserves an immediate "T", what deserves a warning, etc.

Two years of being in stripes -- working about 250 games (counting tournaments) -- and I still haven't given out my first technical to a coach. I've been close only twice. Perhaps I have a long fuse, or maybe I've just been lucky?

Question for everyone who has dished out a "T" to a coach:
How long, or how many games had you officiated, before giving that first one out?

Last night
 

My first year - I was hoping to be proud of having a long fuse - might be the wrong philosophy as an official - I made it to game 6!~:)

I have given 6 in 15 years to coaches. You may have a long fuse, or you may have great people or mediation skills. You'll know when you have to do it. Hopefully, you never will!

Hoping you never have to do it is like hoping your young daughter doesn't turn into a hormonal teenager. It's futile.

ok.... so we've had one family fued and one darth vader reference today.

Not a lot of coaches in mens rec leagues huh?

As has been stated in other threads on this topic...don't worry about giving a T, most good officials have spent far more time thinking about T's that they should have given than ones that they have given out.

You need to find your line that can't be crossed and always take care of business when it is crossed...it really is that simple...that and ignore whatever the oracle says.;)

Newbie
 

I coached for 14 years (stop throwing things at me) and have finally turned to the bright side. This is my first year officiating (and my first post as well). I have not given a T yet (15 games at various lower levels) and am not sure that I have a long fuse, but use my previous experiences have led me to inform coaches when they are beginning to get near a line they do not want to cross. I must have received (earned) seven technicals in my first three years of coaching - and happily only one during my final eleven seasons. I realized (after three years - whoops long time) that I must recognize what events in the game in which I have control and leave all the other occurrences to those in which it is their responsibility.

I made it three quarters before giving my first one. :D

Welcome to the light side :) I'm glad you shared your story. A lot of new guys just don't realize that new coaches also have to learn where the line is, and ought to be given a T when it's deserved.

Boy, an attempt at a personal insult and very much aligned with my philosophy? Wow...:D Your advice is outstanding.

One of my focus items this year is to give the coaches the T's they earn. Whether it's ranting and raving or repeatedly being out of their box, it's just another call. I'll continue to deal with coaches with respect and make every effort to avoid the T via talking or warnings but I have defined a line and over the line, even an inch, will be a T. I'm going to treat it like OB. So far this year after about 10 games, one T in a JUCO game.

And apparently your philosophy is improving. :cool:

2:15 seconds in to the first quarter of my very first varsity game. Counting T's is like a tin horn gunfighter cutting notches in his gun. I dont keep up with them, but I hand them out like candy on Halloween! 90% of HS coaches are idiots and do not know the rules. They are supposed to attend the state clinics to know the rule changes... But instead of going to learn the game, they send the waterboy or the janitor. So in turn, when one of these morons that tax payers are subsidising acts up. I wack him! And if one isnt good enough. I wack him again and send him to the time out corner!!!!! If they dont take the time to become educated to benefit the kids. Im not taking the time to listen to him rant about a moving screen!!!!!!!! Give me a break coach!!! Read the damn rule book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wow.. thats a strong stance.

Im sick and tired of going to the state meetings only to see the trainer, janitor or some other representative that has no interest in knowing the rules. I wish I had a dollar for every coach that has yelled " watch the moving screen!" Bascially what it boils down to is that we the taxpayers are not getting our monies worth from coaches and school employees. If we turned out a product in the private sector like the schools that turn out their products. We would be out of business. So Yea, its a strong stance because Im tired of the idiot coaches that try and manipulate officals with their tripe they spout out during a game!!!!

Don't sugar coat it archer, tell us how you feel. What would be your reply to the a$$_istant coach who asks "rule book, you mean they write this stuff down"?:D :D :D

First of all I dont talk to ***. coaches! As far as Im concerned they are like the lil yip yip dogs that are nippin at your hills when you are taking a walk with the misses. At the end of last year I called a walk b/c a kid fell to the floor while in possession of the ball. I go by the coach and the idiot told me that I blew that call. On my trip back down the floor I ask, whys that coach? He smugly told me that the kid tranferred his pivot foot to his butt. I asked him if he was referring to the anal pivot? He promptly replied with a smug look. Thats exactly what Im talking about.......... IDIOT!

I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.

99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?";)

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.

Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.

If they are alerting you to a perceived disadvantage, are they not trying to get the call in their favor? Geesh.:rolleyes:

Something tells me every time a coach yells 3 seconds the oracle blows his whistle, every time they yell reach there's a whistle, moving screen whistle, over the back whistle...

Well, that's certainly an Old School philosophy.

Welcome back, Old School. Better luck this time.

You're so cynical.

I can't tell you exactly, because clocks didn't have tenths of a second back then, but it was under one second in my first game. At least, I think it was. Actually, sundials weren't that accurate, either.

I can tell you that Dr. Naismith didn't appreciate being rung up that fast. :D

Ahhhh the first T...so long ago...My first one game in my first year about game 4 or 5....I actually issued the coach's 2nd T and tossed him.

Had an OOB play in front of his bench..he thought the other team just threw the ball OOB on a fast break but his player tipped it out. He went off pretty bad right next to me...I didn't know what to do..I figured he was just venting by my partner who was now on the baseline took exception and whacked him....This just threw gas on the fire and it ended with him grabbing his coat from the bleacher behind him, walking past me toward the door (like he knew it was coming) and as he passed me he said "I'm outta here, you guys SUCK!"....So I figured I'd make sure he kept on walking.

Oh, that was 7 years ago in a 3rd grade rec league! :rolleyes:

Wow! Unreal.

I have to admit that I've been wondering the same thing. Quite a similarity.

In my brief career it seems that a coach is more likely to get on me when he's frustrated over the way his team is playing, or frustrated because his team just doesn't have the talent to compete with their opponent. So instead of admitting as much he begins to vent at the ref and place blame elsewhere.

I guess what I get kind of tired of are the coaches who make verbal comments about every call or non-call during the game when things aren't going their way. I heard a few last night in my JV game: "man it's barn ball out there," "no foul?" "over the back!," and then when her (inept) team finally drew an interior foul she calls out "thank you!" as if the game were lopsided because of how we were calling it instead of because her team was slower and less athletic than the other team. How far do you let that constant chirping go?

LOL, too funny. Ironically, the closest I've been has not been in a school game but in a kid's tournament. When I reminded the coach that if I called everything he was whining about we'd end up in a FT contest between two teams of 4th grade girls who couldn't even throw the ball that far, let alone actually make a FT, he calmed down a bit.

Sheesh, some people really shouldn't be coaches.

Wow. I have no chance of figuring out why some high school coach is doing what they do. I've known my brother for 42 years and couldn't tell you why he does what he does half the time. I just don't think I'm gonna have much luck figuring out some stranger in less than an hour and half. Quite franlky I don't care to either. The coaches are there to coach and be role models, not act like my 2 year old nephew.

Coaches pop off for a variety of reasons.

A. can't coach - it's the refs fault we lost
B. Not enough talent and can't coach--it's the refs fault we lost
C. Have talent and can't coach-it's the refs fault we lost.

It's easier to blame then to accept responsibility. It's pretty easy to expect perfection from others then to accept that calls get kicked. I am a believer that the incessant whiners just don't know what they're doing so they whine. Heck any self respecting alley cat can do that for an hour and a half.

You must be built funny. In my family, it's my wife that has the hills. Of course, sometimes I wish they were mountains. :rolleyes:

I know those are meds around here somewhere. :o

D. Have no clue about rules, and blame that on the refs.
E. Gonna lose position if team doesn't do well, and that's the refs' fault, too.
F. Can't understand why every ref seems to be hostile to coach -- but it must be their problem, right?
G. Have no sense of neutrality and no respect for authority, and can't understand why refs don't see it their way.
H. Life just isn't fair. Yelling makes it fair, right?

G. Know in their hearts they're destined for greatness...if only they could get some decent refs who'd give them the calls they need.

Technical Fouls
 

Technical Fouls

Top Reasons To Not Give A Technical Foul
• You can address a coach before it becomes a problem. A quiet word can go a long way in preventing a
technical foul.
• When coaches complain, ask yourself, is the call questionable, is the call wrong. If they have a legitimate
gripe, then allow them some latitude. Be courteous. Do not argue. Be firm and fair
• If you know a coach is upset then move away from him or her, even if it means that you and your partner
are not switching or rotating properly.
• Warnings can be very effective in preventing situations from escalating. Don't tolerate a lot before a
warning.
• Lend a resonable ear. Coaches like to be heard. If you ignore them then they become more frustrated and are
more likely to lose control.
• If an assistant is out of line, then you can speak to the head coach and ask them to help you out.
• If a player is out of line then let the coach know. Tell them you've warned their player. That way if you
do give a technical foul, then the coach isn't surprised. Most good coaches will speak to the player first.
• If you have had a rough day and know your fuse is short, keep that in mind before you do anything rash.
Ask yourself, does the situation come under one of the top reasons to give a technical foul.
• If necessary, give an initial strong warning. Let your partner know about the warning.

Top Reasons To Give A Technical Foul
There are many different factors to consider when deciding to give a technical foul. Generally, there are
three areas of coach's behavior that need attention: when a coach makes it personal, when a coach
draws attention to himself or herself, and when a coach's complaints are persistent. Some technical
fouls are easy. They are black and white situations that leave little room for negotiation:
• Using profanity or language that is abusive, vulgar, or obscene.
• A coach questions your integrity.
• Inciting an undesirable crowd reaction.
• A coach is embarrassing an official.
• A coach or player has been warned and has not heeded the warning.
• Leaving the confines of the coaching box and complaining.
• A coach demonstrates displeasure with your partner and their back is turned.
Other technical fouls are not as black and white. In some situations, a warning may be appropriate before
the technical foul is given:
• A coach or player continually demonstrates signals or asks for calls.
• If they have interfered with the game or your concentration, then they have usually gone too far.
• If giving a technical will help give structure back to the game and if it will have a calming effect on things.

Top Ways To Give A Technical Foul
• Calling a technical foul should be no different then calling any other foul. It is simply a rule that requires
a penalty. Maintain a calm attitude, have poise and presence. Don’t personalize it. Don't embarrass the
coach by being demonstrative.
• Take your time. Don’t over react. Always sound the whistle and stop the clock with a foul signal. Signal
the technical foul. Take a deep breath to calm yourself. Proceed to the reporting area, report the technical
foul clearly to the table, and leave the area. Never look at a coach when you give a technical foul.
• Confer with your partner. If the technical foul is charged to the head coach or bench personnel, have your
partner inform the coach of the loss of the coaching box.
• Explanations, it needed should be done by partner. Always explain technical fouls on players to coaches.
• Proceed with the administration of the penalty. After technical fouls, put the ball in play immediately.
Because a coach has been penalized with a technical foul does not mean that the coach is allowed
rebuttal time.
• Make them earn the second technical foul. Don't be reluctant to give the second technical foul if it
is warranted.
• Do not discuss a technical foul or an ejection of a player or coach beyond the confines of the gymnasium.
Doing so is very unethical. The penalty is enough.

 

I love hearing coaches tell me to watch the moving screens, 3 seconds and over the back...... That pretty much reinforces my thoughts of coaches. When I encounter a howler monkey coach like that. I lock and load because Ill be aiming for the tree line to wack that monkey off his limb..............

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

I just give him a look, and then let it go. He said nothing else and I think I made my point in just one look.

Same situation in a 7th grade girls game after a made basket I happened to glance at the clock because I knew we were under a minute in the half. The clock said 35.(something). I finish my count and blow the whistle for the 5 sec. violation and the clock stops at 29.8. I'm congratulating myself and the coach is saying something about a fast count.

That being said....

Archer, you are no worse than an uneducated coach who believes the officials cost his/her team a game. As a High School JV coach and Varsity Assistant coach I take great offense to you lumping every coach in the world together. I don't go to those state meetings because I don't need the rule book explained to me, not because I don't care.

I have refereed for over 10 years and I give coaches the benefit of the doubt until they cross the line, you clearly come in to every game with a pre-conceived notion of what to expect from the coaches and that is every bit as wrong as the "howler-monkey" coaches that don't know the rules.

Davism for a coach yelling to get a 5 (or 3) second call:

"Coach, that wasn't 5 (or 3) seconds even in dog years." :p

This is why I have no patience for jv coaches or varsity coaches for the most part.
You say you have reffed for 10 yrs and dont go to state clinics? Typical mentality of a coach............................. errr... coach/referee.
When I was younger and doing the AAU curcuit I came acoss an a$$. coach for an AAU team. He made a point to let me know he was a registered official in our state. Me being a young offical took it for granted that he would not be a problem. Well he starts on the guy I was training. I explained to him that he was learning the game and of all people he should know what the young guy was going through. Well,,,,, He got ejected. Escorted off the property, etc... I in turn on the following day was informed by this idiot that He is real good buddies with HIS commissioner and that I would never work a post season game in high school ever again...... Well,,, after 4 state finals and countless Region Championships I still wonder when Im gonna get my games taken away.
So until you decide to take this serious. Dont come on here telling me how to officiate...... Boy, as far as Im concerned...... Your still pooping yellow and Ive no patience for Know-it-alls!

I think we're misunderstanding each other, or at least the way things work in our respective states. I attend each year my association's interpretation meeting, but I don't attend the state interscholastic association's rules meeting for coaches because I find it remedial and a waste of my time. Once again I find your preconceived notions to go beyond the normal, usually humorous, coach bashing that I've come to expect on this forum and I resent you questioning my dedication to officiating. I give my brother and sister officials the highest level of respect while they are busting their a$$es, especially in a game that I am coaching, and I expect that respect in return when I am working my hardest to teach young men the right way to play the game.

Good for you.

Man, there seems to be a bit of coach-disliking (hate is a strong word) here. I've been spoiled so far this year. Eight games, all sub-varsity and all of the coaches have been pretty good. One even said at the start of the JV game "this is all about the kids, I won't be talking to you guys at all". And he stayed true to his word! Tonight I do my first varsity game of the season(two actually, girls and boys), only my 3rd and 4th ever. Perhaps the "heat" will crank up a notch or three and all the love so far will disappear.

90% of coaches give the others a bad name. ;) That's usually the first indication of danger. Don't let that one good experience lull you into believing that the next coach who says that to you actually means it. Coaches who tell you crap like this are either trying to do damage control on their reputations or convince themselves that it's true. Or both. I wouldn't bet money against you on this ;)

If your judgment and people skills are good, this will be the norm.

and he strikes again.

An anti-coaches bias, why would I have that. They are some of the most professional, respectful people I have ever met.

Here is just a small list of what these professional and respectful people have said to me. Mind you the vast majority of my games have been HS frosh/JV games.

A cheater, a racist, fa#got, an idiot, a f@@en idiot, stupid, need I go on.

I have been locked out of my locker room, by a Varsity coach,so I would need to deal with the ejected Frosh coach again.

I have had a coach insinuate he was going to wait for me in the parking lot. Apparently his 5 foot 7 inch tall head thought better of it.

I had a coach lie about our conversation to my assignor. My assignor went with my version of the story.

Need I go on.

Are there coaches who serve their profession well ? Of course there are. I just don't get to appreciate them cause I spend so much time babysitting the others.

"Tonight I do my first varsity game of the season(two actually, girls and boys), only my 3rd and 4th ever. Perhaps the "heat" will crank up a notch or three and all the love so far will disappear."

Pretty benign night actually. They weren't close games and coaches were calm for the most part. Maybe because it's so close to Christmas they don't want Santa to note any bad behavior.

And then you woke up? :confused: