Coach Issues
 

this was a first for me...

Freshman boys. Team A shot and missed and A1 hit the ball into A's backcourt where it was retreived by A2. for some odd reason, I blew my whistle and called a backcourt violation. knowing I screwed up the second I blew my whistle, I immediately comfirmed my mistake with my partner and then gave the ball back to A for a throw-in. Meanwhile team B Varsity coach who was sitting on the bench started yelling at me about how i needed to go to the possession arrow in a situation like this. I told him he was wrong and that he was not the head coach of this game and that i would only address the freshman coach, then turned to the freshman coach and asked him to keep his bench quiet.

I thought this was over when, after the game, guess who was waiting for me outside of the locker room? you got it, the varsity coach. he was livid that I would talk to him like that and that he is Always the head coach if he is on the bench and how i was a "smart alec" etc... I spoke to him for a minute and defended myself and then attempted to walk around him to the lockerroom, when he steps infront of me, blocking me from going in the door...I wanted to throw some punches, but I ended up getting around him...

What can I do in this situation?

also I tossed the home coach in the JV game, another first. after that game a spectator, who I come to find out is the girls JV coach, was waiting for me to tell me " a good official would have done this, a good official would have done that..."

Tough night....any thoughts? anything I could have done better?

Next time (hopefully there will never be a next time) don't say one word to the coach, turn around and go find game management and ask them to deal with the coach.

Oh, and a call to your assignor after the game and perhaps a report to the state depending on what happened in any sort of confrontation.

Don't even talk to the varsity coach. You could just whack him directly, especially if he jumps up and starts yelling aggressively, but if you want to warn, only talk to the head freshman coach. Do it calmly and with no defensiveness.

This is just plain wrong. Turn and walk quickly back into the gym or whereever there might be "witnesses" and find the AD or other gym managment type person.
DOn't talk to this guy, or defend yourself . See above.

"Thank you, thank you," walking quickly away into the locker room. "Thank you, thank you". Getting away as fast as possible.

Do you get your games through an assignor? If so, let him know.

Your state needs to know about how he treated you as well. There is no excuse for cutting you off from the locker room and confronting you like that. His AD needs a reprimand from the state.

First of all, i'd like to know why the varsity coach was on the bench to begin with. Unless at pre game he was announced as assitant coach, I would have removed him.

When is anyone "announced" as an assistant? Is this specific to a certain state?

As far as I know, it doesn't matter what he is, if he is on the bench then he is bench personnel and treated as such....do you treat the trainer differently than you treat an assistant coach?

There is absolutely no basis for you to do this. And in lots of schools in different areas the frosh or JV coach is actually just a varsity assistant coach, and many times I've seen the varsity coach sit on the bench as an assistant in those instances.

Exactly...I don't even know how you would know, what do you go to the HC before the game and ask what the role is of every non-uniformed person on their bench?

Ichi...

First, let me say that I agree with everything other posters have said before me on this thread. There's no excuse for the coach confronting you after the game...he lost face and sounds like he couldn't deal with it and that now must be addressed with your association, state, etc. However......

Go back to the start of the confrontation...you started it when you dorked up with the IW. Not a major mistake and one easily corrected, but it was your mistake to start with (and we've all done similar "DOH's"). When the V coach started yelling that you had proceeded incorrectly (incorrectly, BTW) you had a choice to make and it sounds like you reacted defensively. Technically you were correct, but, IMO, you escalated the situation by immediately telling the V coach "You're wrong" and then directing the frosh coach to shut up his "assistant" and keep him in line. Again IMO, you put the frosh coach on a huge spot because it's rare the HS frosh coach who is an "equal" to the V head coach...the frosh coach invariably works for the V coach in some capacity and is unlikely to direct or stand up to the V coach. Now the V coach has been publically humiliated over a minor mistake in a freshman game and the proverbial molehill has grown into a mountain.

What would I have done? Being a freshman game, and even though the V coach was technically an assistant, I would have brought him and the frosh coach together and explained my mistake and that we're going POI per the rules (I don't have my rules book with me so I can't cite the exact rule). By treating the V coach (who, face it, would be my real target for pacification in light of my error) as the de facto guy-in-charge, it would probably prevent any further blow-ups. Call it game management, call it humility, call it real-politick, but I want the game to continue without unecessarily bringing on more and bigger problems. This should never have escalated into a pi$$ing contest between me and the V coach.

For me the toughest part of officiating is dealing with coaches, and when I let my emotions overcome detached calm and logic, that's when I start to have real problems. Just one guy's 2 cents worth.

Or maybe call it a lack of balls....

Just one guy's two cent's worth.

Ha ha how did I know this was coming?

Just the opposite...it takes balls to address your own mistakes and solve problems. Are you telling me you would have handled the original situation (not the V coach's actions after the game) as the original poster did? Look what balls did for him.

And nice job of taking one part of a larger commentary out of context.

Well, hell.....

-official blows an accidental whistle
-officials corrects accidental whistle as per rules.
-a member of bench personnel who is <b>NOT</b> the head coach <b>YELLS</b> at official that he is wrong.
-official warns <b>bench personnel</b> about <b>YELLING</b> at him.
-official warns <b>HEAD</b> coach that a member of his bench personnel is getting out of line.
-warnings work without further in-game incidents.

There's not a damn thing the matter imo in the way that the official handled the incident. The actions of the varsity coach were wrong, and inexcusable.

Yes. See my answer above.

It takes balls to take actions that will benefit other officials that have to go into that school for future games. Maybe next time the Varsity coach might hesitate before <b>yelling</b> at an official when he damnwell shouldn't be.

As for your larger commentary, for the record I disagree with it. The original poster didn't escalate anything. He <b>stopped</b> the unsporting actions of the Varsity coach.

As I said, just one guy's 2 cents worth, like it or not. Shrug.

JR...

Okay

CornDog, you are 100% correct. Once "balls" enters the eqaution, escalation is virtually unavoidable. The coach approaching after the game is inexcusable--however, better body language, choice or words, and tone of voice is probably what started the escalation here. You kick a call, it is best to admit it and take your medicine. Unless the whole gym hears a personal insult, you lose face by whacking somebody after you blow a call.

We really do not know that. All we know is that the official gave a warning; we do not know the tone of voice, the body language or facial expressions that might have been used to get that point across. Look, dealing with coaches is an art. Even if he handled it wonderfully, it does not mean the next officials will have to deal with the same behavior. Coaches react for all kinds of reasons and it does not matter what the other official did that perpetuates that. This coach was just a jerk and if he could not handle an official putting him into his place, he might go up against another official that is not worried about what he thinks and will report him appropriately. I know I do not officiate for the next guy. I officiate for myself and the crew that is on the game. I cannot take responsibility for what that coach does with other people. A coach might be a jerk to me and a nice guy to everyone else.

Peace

You have absolutely no basis for making this judgment. None.

I'm confused as to why people keep referring to the Op'er as "escalating" the situation. He handled bench personnel who were yelling at him, and then there is nothing else said about any more problems with that bench. Seems to me that he got the point across and the bench stopped yelling. The next time the situation was brought up was when the idiot coach confronted the official in the hallway outside the locker room. How-in-the-hell can you people blame the official for the coach being an a$$???

And before anyone asks, yes I would (and have) dealt with the Varsity coach sitting on the bench during a sub-varsity game and yelling at me or my crew - and I've dealt with them in much the same way as the OP did...to sit and say "Well it must have been his tone of voice or body language that caused that coach to confront him in the hallway later" is absoulutely idiotic. Or pusillanimous maybe...

Whacking somebody is a situation unto itself. Doesn't matter how many calls you blew before, it is nobody's job on that bench to have commentary about them, especially if they were straightened out properly, as in this case. If somebody needs to be whacked, whack 'em, whether it be before or after any other call.

To add to what JAR just said, it's not about losing or saving face. Seems rather selfish to me. If the coach earns a T, even if it's quietly, give it to him and move on with the game. We all have IWs, and yet we rarely have a coach turn into coach Kreshewewski over it.

It doesn't sound like that to me. It sounds like he knew he was right, and he acted in accordance with the situation that the so-called V coach escalated.

Ichi may have used the phrase "I told him he was wrong" in his post, but there's no indication that he said that in the sitch. And he didn't even say he directed the frosh coach to shut his assistant up and keep him in line. He directed the HEAD coach, who is supposed to be in charge after all, to control his bench. That's the neutral, official instruction straight from the book. How is that inflamatory?[/QUOTE]
The V coach humiliated himself making a mountain out of a molehill. The ref is just trying to get the game back on track.

This sounds like a great way to cut the family jewels off the frosh coach. If he can't stand up to the V coach already, you're sure not helping here. It's like a coach asking your partner to through you under the bus. Not a good plan, imo.

It wasn't a pissing contenst between ichi and the coach. IT was the coach being a complete and total jerk. ichi just dealt with the sitch. got the game going, had no more game problems. I call that game management. you can call it whatever you want.

Doesn't sound like his emotions overcame his calm or his logic. I don't get how you're interpreting this as ichi's problem. The V coach got idiotic, ichi got him under control. sounds good to me.

And the OP didn't whack, either. pretty non-inflammatory if you ask me. This was a jerk coach, pure and simple.

Taking your medicine is letting somebody on the bench who is <b>NOT</b> the head coach <b>YELL</b> at you without doing something about it?

Methinks you'd be better off looking to raise a new crop of testicles too....

Just one guy's 2 cents worth.....:)

We just disagree philosophically, Corndoggie. Nothing personal, fer sure.:)

Definitely do not punch him. If you feel a really big need to do something, stare at his shoes.

Then write a report to your officiating governing body and/or the athletic director about the incident.

It sounds like you had little choice in seeing the V coach after the game. In this case, end the conversation as soon as you can.

And to add to what Snaqs just said, bench decorum is a major POE at the NCAA level this year. It is also a continuing concern at the high school level, as evidenced by the numerous POE's issued by the FED in the last few years. They <b>want</b> officials to reduce unsporting behavior, not make excuses as to why they shouldn't deal with it.

Jmo.

Agree completely. And I don't disagree with your position on this...just sounded like the original poster may have reacted somewhat defensively and maybe could have handled it differently; but I wasn't there so I don't really know. But he also did ask "anything I could have done better?" so I gave my thoughts. There's more than one way to skin any cat. The boys are a little tender now, though, thanks :D

Jurassic Referee is funny! "...you'd be better off looking to raise a new crop of testicles too...." Classic!

The only thing I would have done differently, and was not mentioned, is give the explanation. First of all, it wasn't a question it was a comment - don't answer the comment. Secondly, I wouldn't have this much discussion with the assistant anyway. Finally, the IW made this a sticky situation. Putting the ball back into play will often force a coach to...wait for it...coach his/her team.
Other than that, when the time is right stick (the coach/offender) and move (on). It is just a call that is earned. Once the unsporting behavior occurs, why is this different from a foul or violation that occurs? The officials didn't do it, they just put air in the whistle with the backing of the rulebook.

If an official gives an unwarranted T then damn it, the official is wrong!
If an official does not give a warranted T then damn it, the official is wrong and the next official may have to deal with the same behavior!

Only one way to handle the in game incident. "Coach, get control of your bench" at minimum or an immediate T on bench personnel which is an indirect on the HC. I never speak to or allow a AC to have a conversation with me about a call. ANY complaint about a call from a AC warrants ONE warning and then a WHACK. Stops alot of problems.

This sounds like an absolute and many veterans (Rut) rightfully talk about not having absolutes. However, if you want to have an absolute either way (always talking to an assistant or never talking to an assistant), I think you've chosen the correct absolute.

Its a close to an abbsolute as I do have. But, we all have absolutes. I defy anyone one here to say that they wouldn't ever give a T to a player that dropped an N-Bomb on an opponent. Or called an official a sonuvabeech. We all have absolutes. Its just where you draw the line

From your thread, it looks like the MHSAA e-mail basically said the same thing to some of your fellow officials.:D

Btw, kudos to whoever wrote that. He recognized that they have a problem and he wants something done about it. It's nice for an official to know that someone has got his back after he takes care of bidness.

Absolutely!

I missed this comment first time around. Don't know how....it's so ridiculous. Are you really saying that if a coach makes derogatory comments to you, but only loud enough that you can hear him, you should ignore those comments? You're really advocating that we should ignore personal insults as long as they're made quietly?

Un...freaking...believable...

Lah me.......:rolleyes:

I don't think I have any word that is an absolute ("automatic"). To call it such, you paint yourself into a corner where no matter what the circumstances, you have to call it.

In the area I work now, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be an occasion where an Nbomb between opponents would go without a whistle. But, there may be half a dozen African American players in this valley that I'm aware of.

Even if the area was more "diverse", I highly doubt I'd hear it in anything but an unsporting context. I just don't think it deserves the moniker "absolute" or "automatic." The more I think, the more I can foresee some odd circumstances in which I might not call it.

As for your second example, it could depend on the way it was said and the atmosphere in which it was said. I'm 99% sure I'd call it, but I'm just not sure.

Now, if you want to get more specific with these scenarios, you could probably come up with something I wouldn't feel the need to leave wiggle room on. But about the time you get specific enough to draw an approval for the term "automatic," you get too narrow to make the term mean anything.

Well, if they follow an officials error; you know, something particularly heinous like an inadvertent whistle for backcourt.

I didnt post much this summer and fall....tell me...is THeORacle just another name for the Old one who must not be named?????

He's off base just enough to make you wonder. ;)

I know what he's trying to get at here...that if you kick something that you should be a little more lenient towards the reaction of the coach...I don't think he's saying that you should ignore it all the time unless the whole gym hears it. I don't agree, but it's a common philosophy that I've encountered. If you screw up the coach can yell at you a little more than if you're right.

My problem with that is the coach almost always thinks you're wrong, so if you let him have at you once or twice you've given him the green light the rest of the way. Regardless of what happened prior to the coach's behavior, you have to address the behavior and if it merits a T then let him have it. You're not losing face...if a coach can't handle a missed call (which is a reality of the game) appropriately then he needs to be dealt with. His behavior serves as the model for his players who need to learn to play through it.

In regards to the OP, every official deals with coaches differently and we obviously were not there. Based on the OP, I guess I would not have addressed a comment, especially from the bench and in the event I did, I would never tell someone that they are wrong. They may very well be, but I would explain the correct rule/call and go with it. If the comment or reaction is bad enough then deal with it regardless of who it comes from.

1. Write a letter to the pincipal and school board with only facts of what he did, not the actual play on the court (they won't know or care). His behavior is unacceptable.
2. Don't work there anymore.

TheOracle used the very specific description <b>"personal insult"</b>. Now, it might be common philosophy where you officiate for officials to ignore <b>"personal insults"</b> at certain times, but it is rare in my area. Not many officials that I know will tolerate <b>"personal insults"</b> under any circumstances. Personally, I certainly won't.

Yeah I get your point with the "personal insult". I know what he was trying to get at it. Was not agreeing with him and didn't mention a "personal insult". I don't think that any official should ever put up with a "personal insult". I was trying to share a "similar" philosophy that I've encountered...if you screw up then you let the coach have a moment at your expense. And like I said before I think that philosophy, in addition to "personal insults" of course, is totally wrong. IMO if you kick a call and then let a coach walk all over you, you've lost more face than if you kick a call, pick yourself back-up and go on with the game. And if that means addressing a coaches behavior then do it. The rules do not differentiate between poor behavior after a kicked/bad call or poor behavior after a good call.

IMHO (My wife claims I should never use the letter H when I post:D )

Personal insults are Unsporting in nature and therefore qualify under the rules for a T no matter the circumstances. I don't consider myself T happy, but it seems to come to the fore in many threads that some of us don't like to or are afraid to issue them.

Not being there give some thought to how you handled the mistaken back court call. Perhaps you may have said Coach I had an inadvertant whistle. I wouldn't go into any more detail than that. Inbound the ball and play on. Concerning the Varsity Coach on the bench. In theory noone can argue on how you handled it. In this case he is indeed the assistant and should not be talking to you. That being said he is the Varsity Coach and deserves a tad bit more respect than your regular run of the mill Assistant Coach.

You can be right in principle (I think you are) but asking the Freshman Coach to reign in his boss (Varsity Coach) is asking a lot. JMO.

Incidentally the confrontation outside the locker room. Totally out of line and unacceptable. Contact your Assignor and let him/her handle it.

.

The OHSAA has a form that MUST be used for all ejections. Its a four part form, and the oHSAA will fine any official that doesn't file the paperwork after an ejection. That paperwork can also be used to notify the OHSAA of any unusual or important information. I would definitely use it to file a report with the state for the conduct of the coach.

I can understand granting a bit of latitude when you kick something, but that goes to the head coach, not an assistant. Chances are, I wouldn't even know he was the varsity coach, as most varsity coaches around here watch games from the stands if they're watching the freshman game at all.

Sorry, but I don't really consider an IW a kicked call. Especially when it really had no negative effect except to make the official look awkward. For an assistant coach to stand up and tell everyone in the gym you're doing it wrong? And any latitude I might have given goes out the window when the coach is so blatantly wrong about the rule.

Lucky it only earned a warning, and smart that he heeded the warning. This whole confrontation after the game looks premeditated to me; can't even claim "heat of the moment."

If I know it's the Varsity Coach and he/she is on the bench they get more respect and leeway, at least from me, then the run of the mill assistant. JMO

Why??? would you do the same if the JV coach was sitting on the bench in the Frosh game? If not, then why not? I really don't get this...the POE on bench decorum is very clear.

Here in TN it is very common for a 2 person crew to work the JV girls then JV boys then a 3 person crew arrives to work the VG then VB. I was working the JV games, the VB coach was on the JV bench. Var coach thought we had missed calling a foul in favor of "his" JV team. He vocalized his opinion, we go up the floor, and back, he again is chirping about the first foul, a foul is called in his teams favor, while reporting my partner is closer to bench, VC get up walks past JV Coach, out of box still complaining. Partner assesses T, I go inform JV Coach that he has lost his CB privileges. He looks at VC and says "are you through now"? VC sets down and we do not hear 1 more word from him the rest of the game.

One of the 2nd crew was late arriving so I worked the first half of the Var Girls game, I wish the other crew member had not arrived at all because I would have loved to see the VB coaches face when he would have seen me on his game. I heard latter that he was ejected from the Varsity game. He received two Direct TFs. 1st for "unsporting comment" directed at an official, second for laughing at and making inappropriate gestures to the referee issuing the TF. Obviously that night he was not focused on coaching.

I am still new to this board and officiating in general. It is also Interesting the different directions people go with a situation like this. Thanks for those who were sticking up for me... and I was surprised by corndog'd comments, but i also understand he has his opinion and it is a hard situation to understand without being there.

The only thing that I would have changed would have been to not give him any sort of audience after the game.

BTW, I have the same team on Tomorroe, in thier house this time... should be okay though, I didn't take it personal. Last game was a major upset and his team lost. (no excuse for him, but it wasn't personal)

Woah! He was the visiting varsity coach? Not that it changes anything substantial, I just find it even more suprising.

Ichi, a lot of these guys make me laugh. The only thing in yuor description that raised my eyebrows (without being there) was that you said the coach called you a smart aleck. So my guess is that he perceived something. You may not even be aware of body language or tone of voice, but it is important. If you get labeled as unapproachable or snide, you will severely limit your chances of advancing. Fair or unfair, that's a general rule.

Also, these guys are correct about assistant coaches. They should not be involved with officials at all. Instead of threatening or giving an automatic T, a simple comment to the head coach that you are working for him only, not his assistants, and you only want to hear from or interact with him, that will work almost every time with little conflict. Virtually every time the HC will tell the bench to shut up, and appreciate the subtle warning.

Disclaimer: The works well at the Varsity HS and College levels. I am certain that this would not work well at times in JH or AAU ball.

Why you say. Let see. I toss the Varsity Coach in a Freshman Game. A game noone gives a second thought about played in obscurity in the auxilary gym. I'll Tee and toss Frosh Coaches and I'll Tee and toss Varsity Coaches (in fact I did this a week ago) in Varsity Games. In my state the coach is suspended one game at the level he was coaching. He/she sits one Frosh Game. In the meantime they can't coach the Varsity Team until the suspension is served. At this point I think my officiating career is over unless I move to another state.

It's not worth the heat. Kind of like pulling the Police Chief over and writing him a ticket on a Sunday when he's not working.:rolleyes:

So you will let a coach sit there and be as big an a-hole as they want to be because it's "only a frosh game" and it's "not worth the heat" - that about sum it up??

Like JR said earlier, time to grow a pair.

Some will. Some absolutely refuse. That's why we see the same ol' POE on bench decorum year after year after year.

You don't tug on Supermans cape, you don't spit into the wind and you don't pull the mask off of the Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with the Varsity Coach in a Frosh Game. Hey Kamikaze Pilots have stones the size of Everest. What did it get them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:

This makes me sad for you. A varsity coach is not superman, lone ranger, or the wind. He ain't a US Navy Battleship, either. He sure as hell ain't the police chief. He's a coach.

Your comparisons need work.

If he wants you to stop calling traveling, you gonna comply in the freshman game?

Stop yourself:eek:

I'm just asking, 'cause you've just stated you're willing to set aside bench decorum rules in a freshman game rather than make waves with the all-powerful varsity coach. I'm just wondering exactly how compliant you think officials should be for Lord Coach.

Let me think. On 12/7 I teed an assistant coach. I didn't want to do it his team was getting blown out but he was sceaming at me. On 12/14 I teed a varsity coach with 6 seconds left in a three point game and teed him again after he came after me when the game was over. He was of course ejected. And on 12/15 I teed a player for unsporting conduct. It was an interesting week.

Did I answer your question.

So your previous post was just irony? Sorry, it's been a long week.

For the newer officials: Although I may be reading into the above a bit too literally, my input is to not tell a head coach "that you are working for him only." We administer the rules...we aren't subordinate or beholding to coaches.

I don't understand why this has to be such a big comment to the head coach. Maybe that is the problem, some people want every comment to a coach to be earth shattering. Asking the coach to control his bench doesn't have to be about two men squaring off. That is why some people come on here and are so broken up about giving a T. Forget all the witty/smart comments and get some guts!
This is why I wouldn't have absolutes about assistants: you can use them. I learned this many years ago from college. Assistants keep track of certain things during a game and when you want a coach to break the huddle, the assistant is probably the only one looking at you. Depending on the assistant, I will use them to help with certain situations. For instance, last night I asked an assistant to make sure none of the players were wearing white shirts under their blue jerseys - there was no other communication with an assistant. However, when it comes to complaining, they have no voice. That is when I ask the coach to control his/her bench. After that, it is open season. I'm of the opinion that your Ts will go down once you become established - if you handle things correctly early on. I have moved around more than most and I'm not shy about calling a well-earned T. Once a coach realizes I don't care about calling whatever is appropriate, the behavior changes.

Would be really funny if an AD from another school or a HS assignor was at that game watching his freshman child playing, wouldn't it? What do you think your chances of getting another game anywhere would be if he/she witnessed your lack of bench decorum management?

The minute you use the word "only" to describe the level of game you are officiating is the exact moment you need to stop officiating that level of ball. And I'm not making a value judgement here. Just saying if a certain level of basketball is in the "only" category why would you continue to ref it.

And another question, since when are we supposed to keep track of other "titles" of the bench personnel? I assume anyone sitting on the bench not wearing a uniform falls in one of 4 categories: Head Coach of that team; assistant coach of that team; injured player; trainer.

"Bench personnel." All are the same with the same rights and responsibilities (none).

FYI - in case anyone was wondering here is a little epilogue...

we called a good game tonight and this V-Coach (which I find out is also the AD) is the one who unlocks our dressing room, brings us a bottle of water, etc... and he was nice to use. We called really good games without anything out of the ordinary, except maybe an obvious intentional foul call (against his team). After the game, the JV coach, who is young and apparently took a page from V-coach's playbook and asks (respectfully) to talk to me before i go get changed, I comply and he started talking about how i disrespected his players because of the lack of calls, some of his players were crying (JV Boys) we did not talk to him, but just went to our dressing room.

Then this V-Coach/AD comes in and tells me that he will make sure that i never ref there again. since we had a good game i can only assume he is still bent out of shape about the original post situation and would have said this no matter how tonight went. I can think of nothing even close to anything he would have had a problem with tonight (BTW he had no problem with my partner) Also they have really really bad teams, this doesn't help things...Weird stuff...

This needs to get filed with your state, your assigner, your pastor, and your bishop. Okay, you might be able to leave the pastor and bishop out, but I'd definitely file a full report with your assigner and state governing body. If your assigner has any testicular fortitude, you'll have a couple more games with this coach again.

This is a pattern and this AD has issues.

Just a suggestion....fwiw.....

If a coach asks to talk to you post-game, tell the coach that you will do so only if he has a question about the rules that he would like answered. Tell him right up front <b>before</b> any discussion that if he just wants to b!tch about anything, there will be <b>no</b> discussion. If he does start to b!tch, then do exactly what you did above. Turn your back and leave. Nothing that you will say will ever change their minds.

Don't ever let these clowns get to you either.