a few quick quesions.
 

to futher prove my idiocy...

Intentional vs flagrant foul. Are they one in the same or different.

also.. There are at least 2 signals that are not in the rules book.

1. at the end of the game most refs I have worked with do a signal like the no basket signal, but over thier head.

2. The ejection signal. Now I know we all know the "your outa here" signal but I'm surprised its not in the book.

Yep, but the flagrant also has an ejection as part of the penalty.

Maybe those 2 signal will be coming to a rulebook near you soon.

So you can have an intentional without a flagrent??..

They are different. Flagrant fouls can be personal or technical. They are used for violent or savage contact fouls or for especially severe non-contact unsporting technical fouls.

The main thing is that a flagrant foul includes a disqualification of the player or coach. So, a flagrant technical would be used for something deemed severe enough to eject that player or coach. Fighting is an automatic flagrant foul.

Then you have an official making up his/her own signal...but many use some form of the "no score" signal at the end of quarters.

You don't have to signal anything for this. Simply report the flagrant foul (or the second direct technical) and then tell the player or coach that he/she is disqualified.

Yes. In fact, as I was educated on here recently, you can't have a flagrant intentional foul. You can have an intentional foul, you can have a flagrant foul, you can have an intentional technical foul, and you can have a flagrant technical foul.

Read 4-19 to get the full low-down.

Fouls are either personal or technical and then they are modified by intentional, flagrant, or common...so yes an intentional personal foul is very different from a flagrant personal foul as far as the penalty (ejection vs. not!).

1. is not an approved signal and neither is the blowing of the whistle to end the period and there is a lot of disagreement about whether or not it should be done if you have read recent threads....do what others do in the area - I can't think of the last time I worked a varsity game in our area where part of the pre-game was not "we end every period with a whistle", and the "wave" either overhead or out in front accompanies the whistle usually...

2. there is no signal, you don't even need to do the "you're outta here" although many do...just call the foul, go and report it as flagrant, then go through your DQ procedure, inform the coach (and of course explain "why" the flagrant), player, scorer, and go from there....

Coach (player is now bench personnel), timer (begin 20 seconds), then the player.

Whoa, Ch1, you're getting a little sloppy. flagrant and intentional ARE NOT the same, even with the different penalties. I'm not real strong on all the details of the differences, but basically the intentional foul is just another foul with a slightly increased penalty because of the severity or the circumstances. The penalty is two shots for the offended team, and the ball oob at the spot nearest to where the foul was committed. A Flagrant foul is a savage or violent act or an act that could have led to fighting. Always involves a dq for the player who committed it, and then the penalty is like that for an intentional. Flagrants rarely happen. Rarely. Intentionals aren't common, but not rare either. Lots of differences.


Also, the penalty for a player fouling out or getting a second T or getting a flagrant is almost never ejection. Players should be DQ'd to the bench so they can be supervised by their coach, assistant coach, and whoever else is in the gym. COACHES and other adults that need to be, can be ejected, but almost never players. Ejection means the offender needs to leave the gym.

Regarding the signals, I'd like to see one for flagrant, but I doubt it'll happen. The others discussed aren't even remotely likely, imo. Just have to learn to get along without them.

True player becomes bench personnel when coach is notified, but I have always been told that it is coach, player, scorer...I know I tried to look this up at one point over the years, but then never found it and gave up - do you have a rb/cb reference for the order? In any event, it all happens in a matter of about 2 seconds after you are done telling the coach, whether you go player/scorer or scorer/player at that point isn't going to mean a lot....just get the coach first so the player becomes bp, that way if anything happens from that point you know how to administer...

Rule 2-8-4 & case book play 10.5.3SitB....
coach-->timer--->player.

Thar she blows! Thanks!

Your right Juulie, I need to get my language in check!

Flagrants & Intentionals aren't the same. They can be personal or technical, but never combined although they both resume play at the spot closest to where the foul occured after the 2 FTs or maybe even 3 FTs when behind the arc.

How's that :D



kbilla, I dont have my books with me right now. But like Ragu... it's in there (C T P) or maybe it's just an IAABO thang.

Same here, but for me it was always CPS...damn now I have to think of a different one!!

Flagrant and intentional personal fouls go to the closet spot. Flagrant and intentional technical fouls go to center opposite the table.

How's that?:D

Even better b/c it's correct... sometimes I'm better at administering situations than discussing them :(



Oh yeah Juulie, while I'm in correction mode I should've said flagrants carry a penalty of disqualifacation (to the bench for children & off the court for adults). Ejection just isn't the right terminology.