Throw-In ends, huh
 

Sorry if this a thread that has been brought before but.....

I posted this under the "new rule" thread already but didn't know if anyone was looking there or not.

So if the kick violation doesn't complete a legal throw-in and therefore the arrow doesn't change can someone tell me what to do with the following....

A1 has alternating possession throw in and throws the ball toward A2. Ball is thrown too high and without a legal touch by a player bounces off the court inbounds and proceeds to go out of bounds.

I know that team B now gets the ball from team A's throw in spot because the ball went OOB but my question is...

Does the AP arrow change or does team A still have it since the thrown in never ended with a legal touch?

Rules citation please, this has been bugging me since last night and I've been riding the fence ever since. I can't find it anywhere....it was a coach that asked the questions and I hate when I can't quote the rule and where to find it for him.

Thank you.

Team A violated so they loose the arrow.
Case book 9.2.8

I looked through the book...didn't find anything specific, but I'm gonna give it a go...

Team A is ready for throwin. A1 throws ball in and it is kicked by B1. There is a violation and A gets the ball back with the arrow.

vs.

Team A is ready for throwin, throws it across the court. Ball touches no one. Ball belongs to team B. Out of bounds violation and ball goes to B. B also gets possession arrow.

The kicked ball situation differs from the ball going out of bounds because you don't want to penalize the team with the throwin because of the defensive violation.

B would get the ball and the arrow because if you didn't give them the arrow, they would be penalized for A's violation.

Check rule 6.4.5
The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.

That's for a lodged ball, yes...

This ball only touched the floor and went oob...or didn't touch the floor.

My point is according to rule 4.42.5:

The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is legally touched by, another player who is either inbounds or out of bounds.

In situation posted the throw in never ends by a touch.

So, does rule 9.2.2 mean it is a violation to throw a ball in that doesn't touch anyone and proceeds to go oob?

I feel really dumb on this one....don't beat me up too bad.

Thanks both of you guys...now it's clearer....A AP throw in that doesn't touch anyone is a violation on the team with the throw in (9.9.2) therefore they lose the ball for the violation and the arrow (6.4.5).

Now I can go to bed, thanks fellas

good night...but now i can't go to sleep til i figure out what 9.9.2 has to do with it :)

oops, sleep deprivation (9.2.2) :)

Since A1 caused the ball to go OOB, B gets a throw in at A1's original throw in spot, correct? Not where the ball goes OOB?

Right ruling, wrong reason. This was a throw-in violation, not an OOB violation. Therefore, the ball goes to the opponent at the original throw-in spot. (Rule 9, Penalty Section 2)

Also, the rule that the OP should cite for the questioning coach is the one which states when an AP throw-in ends.

6-4-4 "...The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

We are using 6-4-5 The opportunity to make an alternating possession throw in is lost if the throw in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating possession throw in, it does not cause the throw in team to lose the possession arrow.

This means that since team A didn't foul and there is a violation, there is it will be team B's ball and team B will have the poss. arrow the next time around. The throw in spot will be a spot throw in which will be where team A threw the ball in

Perfect, thanks!

Sometimes as refs we get hung up on technicalities and forget common sense.

It makes sense that if a throws the ball away they commited a violation and loose the ball and the arrow.

A couple of people referenced the rules above.

Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

there is an old saying. "keep it simple stupid"

Not calling you stupid LOL, but the point is try not to over think everything.

And remember that the ensuing throw-iin by B isn't an AP throw-in. It's the penalty for A's violation. After B completes this throw-in the arrow should still be pointing to B's basket, for use in some subsequent AP sitch.

Does someone have the same screen name as you? Unless you've done years and years or rec ball - it isn't the same but at least its something - didn't you make a post today about having your first freshmen games tonight?
Would you walk into a room with veteran officials, officials with state championship and college experience, and begin to talk about what we do as refs? With all the experienced posters on this board that is essentially what you just did. I looked at your post crazy like they would probably look at you if you went into a room saying the same thing. There is also an old saying about being seen and not heard...

I don't want to jump all over you, but think about it for a minute. At this point in your career, would you listen to someone with less experience to you tell you what officials do? If what you say is something you've heard a veteran say, preface it as such.

this would be a pet peave of mine...

so what you are saying is that because I am a new official I am not entitiled to an opinion...

am I wrong??...

Yes.. I absolutely would and do say this stuff to official who have been doing this for 40+ years.. and you know what??.. they dont have a problem with it.

Is there some kind of right of attrition to make a point??

I think that many of us.. new and old still have the same problem. Overcomplication. Its just an opinion.

Sorry to have disturbed some kind of unwritten rule that a new official cant have a take on something.

Isa gonna try and do betta from now on massa...

Come on...:rolleyes:


ps.. sorry for the above post. I just get really upset when people tell me I cant have an opinion on somthing. My 5 year old son has not lived as long as me but daily this child teaches at least one thing that I dont know. Even about stuff that I think I do know. The inexperienced can be just as valuble a resource as the experienced because they are devoid of bad habbits that may have been accumulated over the years. The advice I gave above can be applied to anything you do in life. Please dont tell me that my opinion doesn't matter.

Mike, Tom is one of our resident curmudgeons. He's a very good ref, good on rules but tends to get a little grouchy. He'll rattle his saber a little, but he's also good at encouraging new refs, and refs who need to develop. You can learn a lot from him,even his crusty outbursts.

I understand his point, I just dont completely agree. :)

a bad-tempered, difficult, cantankerous person

I don't know about all that. :D

If I wanted to wax poetic I would say that officiating is an art. Do you tell a seasoned artist how to prepare his brushes? I wouldn't, but that is just me. Can I learn something new from an official? I sure can, but it will more than likely NOT be from statements like you posted. More than likely, we can observe and copy what we see - note, the observe is in silence. :D

If you know the point I'm tryin to make I think it would be good to accept the point without being sensitive about the way it was delivered.
You said something about your theory applying to life. That is a problem I see with officials all the time. It is often hard to get an adult to realize all the success they've had in other areas of their life don't prepare them for what can occur on a basketball court. There is no credit for success in other areas - a rookie official can crash and burn when they talk more than they listen. There are parts of this game that you are light years away from understanding. Some of us older officials used to go to the bar and sit quietly to learn how to officiate. Now we have the Internet and (some) people think they can use this as a fast forward. These are kindler, gentler days, but you come on!

Would you like to put our theories to the test?

BearFan, I just read the beginning of your thread concerning a wet whistle - that is all I could stomach.

Uh...yeah, what was your point again?

I completely agree with this statment.

but I dont feel that I am unqualified to comment on the topic of this thread.

If the topic was.

"I'm doing my first state championship any tips??"

I'm not giving advice. I wouldn't have the first clue on what that was like.

a simple rules interp.. that is somthing I can comment on.

I dont think I have ever overstepped my bounds in that reguard?? have I??

So you dont get condensation buildup on your whistle??..

Like you described in that other thread? NO!!! I have never needed to let water/spittle run out of my whistle.

You must live in a dry climate like mine. ;)

But you do have a clue about...

And you've done how many games to come to this conclusion?
In this case, I am (figuratively) shooting the messanger; the message is OK, but it is coming from someone without the basketball officiating experience to really back it up. Reading this forum does not amount to enough credibility for this. You can read every word of every post and still not be able to put it into action on the floor.

:D

So a new intern walks up to a group of doctors who've performed various levels of surgery and says, "Sometimes we, as doctors, should..." By the time he is finished with the sentence, the surgeons have all walked away shaking their heads.

On his first day in the shop, before working on any cars besides in the back yard (rec leagues), the freshly certified mechanic says to the group of experienced mechanics, "Sometimes we, as mechanics, should..." After catching a wrench upside the head, the new mechanic begins his first oil change job.

Start slowly grasshopper - listen and learn in near silence. There is a ton of information to take in concerning a basketball game and a ton of plays to make before you get comfortable. Statements like this at this point in your career are more than likely something repeated from another official - how do you know how hot the fire is before you've ever been in it.

When I figure this whole thing out I will let you know...and I will retire immediately after because I will have gone where no other official has gone. That ain't gonna happen! :rolleyes:

Had you stopped right there, I don't think anyone (not even tomegun) would have taken issue with your post.


[/Quote]Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

there is an old saying. "keep it simple stupid"

Not calling you stupid LOL, but the point is try not to over think everything.[/QUOTE]

But you added the part about thinking too hard and keeping it simple - which might be good advice (I happen to think it is and would agree with you and buy you another beer at the bar), but it can make some people angry who do take reffing very seriously. It kind of came across as downplaying the hard work and effort some people pour into their officiating careers.

Having said that, of course you can post your opinions...just don't be surprised/indignant/offended when someone else posts that they disagree with your opinion. That's kind of the way opinions work.:p

Or, as very experienced, wise and humane people they remember their first few years, listen to the content and overlook the rather presumptuous tone, and smile condescendingly, knowing that he's right in what he says, even if it implies an authority not necessarily there. Knowing he'll develop a more humble tone as time goes along.

I mean what mike said isn't totally wrong, is it? We do overthink things sometimes, don't we?

No, it isn't totally wrong and yes we do overthink things sometimes. What you posted above makes sense too, that is why I posted this:

You could look at it like instead of looking at him like you described I'm saving him the ridicule by telling him to zip it early on. :D

P.S. I am thinking about my early years...I listened and shut up!

OK, more on the main topic of this thread, "Throw-In ends"...

Alternating Possession situation, A1 is administered the ball for throw in, player on A steps out of bounds, runs up the sideline, then steps back onto the court and receives the throw in...In regards to a team member going out of bounds during the throw in the rule book states "violation or technical"? When is it one over the other? Next, if violation, then A violated during the throw in so they lose Alternating Possession, correct? If technical, then they still lose Alternating Possession?

Again, here are the general rules principles to follow:
-it is a violation to leave the court for an unauthorized reason. You have to learn what the "unauthorized reasons" are.
- it is a technical foul to delay returning in-bounds after being <b>illegally</b> out-of-bounds. You have to learn when a player is legally and illegally out-of-bounds.

Different penalties for 2 completely different situations.

Actually, it is a technical to "purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds." 10-3-3

So potentially could have violation (for being out of bounds illegally), then a technical foul afterwards if there is a delay returning in bounds?

In the situation I described, a member of the throw in team leaves illegally, returns in bounds a few seconds later to receive the throw in, the team is whistled for a throw in violation and they lost their alternating possession. Is that a correct ruling?

No. The violation would make the ball dead, so there's no technical foul.
The technical foul is for delaying the return after being OOB "legally."

In the situation I described, a member of the throw in team leaves illegally, returns in bounds a few seconds later to receive the throw in, the team is whistled for a throw in violation and they lost their alternating possession. Is that a correct ruling?[/QUOTE]
Yes, the ruling is correct. The arrow flips when the throwin is complete. The throwin is complete when the throwin team violates.

Yes, the ruling is correct. The arrow flips when the throwin is complete. The throwin is complete when the throwin team violates.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!