Simultaneous whistle / different calls?
 

I was a spectator at a varsity game last night and it happened twice where two different refs blew their whistle seemingly simultaneously, and had different calls:

Sitch 1. One ref had a jump ball, and the other ref had a timeout by the coach prior to the jump ball. They huddled and went with the timeout.
Sitch 2. One ref had an out-of-bounds call and the other ref had a timeout by the coach. They huddled and went with the out-of-bounds.

Don't know if it's relevant, but, each time, the same ref "won".

My question is: What is talked about in the huddles and how is it determined which call to go with?

Thanks!

Probably they went with which event occurred first both times. It is not a competition.

Calls like this are usually determined by which ever ref offers to buy dinner.

JK... The couple I have had I defered to the more experienced official. One time the other official went with his call. The other he wanted to know what I saw, and he agreed with me.

On the first sitch, this is why I always come up FIRST with the stop clock/violation signal for a jump ball rather than coming up first with the thumbs...and I know this is not an approved NF signal, but it prevents the very confusion presented in this case. In this case, unless I am sure my whistle blew first, I would just defer to my partner who had the TO and nobody would be any the wiser b/c I would not have signaled the jump ball yet...this assumes of course that there WAS player control when the TO was called...if I am on the jump ball and my partner is whistling a TO at the same instant, and I can see clearly from my vantage point that there was never PC, then I will go tell him that and we would probably have a jump ball....

the second case is a little trickier, but we would just discuss what happened....for instance, did the calling official get the TO right away or was the coach going "time out, time out, time out", meaning was there a delay between the time the call was made and when you granted the TO..if there was I think I would be more likely to defer to that official and grant the TO - since you are going to have the OB call immediately, it is more than likely that the TO was called first...basically though you are just hashing out what happened and one official will generally end up deferring...

Yes, I'm sure they did. But, how did they arrive at which happened first? I've learned on this board that the Refs are often looking in different areas. If the ref was looking at the coach calling timeout and didn't see the play, how would they determine it? And, if you ask me, I would think you would almost always go with the timeout, because the ref would not have blown his whistle to grant a timeout, if the ball were loose or tied up.

You would hope not, but you'd be surprised!!! That's why I said that if I could clearly see that there was not player control I would go explain that and hopefully the official who granted the TO would defer....

Who knows? This is going to vary based on the officials involved and what they talked about before the game and likely the type of officials that are working game (experience, reputation, and philosophy). Usually you decide what happen first and go with that. Honestly there is no "one size fits all" position on this.

Peace

In
my experience, usually, one of us knows for sure what was first. "I've got a travel." "Yea, but the foul caused the travel" "RIght, okay"

"Coach called TO" "He asked before the tie-up" "That's fine."

Like that...

Its the elastic clause. Basically.. there is NO way to know for sure. So you discuss.. decide.. and move on.

I'm a little confused on how there couldn't be player control during a held ball

Meaning the team of the coach calling TO did not have player control BEFORE the held ball...sorry I wasn't clear.

Wrong criteria. You don't go by who signaled first or who blew their whistle first. You go by which act occurred first. And that's what the officials have to decide amongst themselves.

True that is a more accurate statement....same point thoug re: the stop clock signal preceeding the held ball signal, unless I am sure that the held ball OCCURRED first, I am going to defer to my partner who granted the TO and we move along...

Had one last Thursday in a JVG game. I'm lead, ball's in the paint on the far side of the lane very near the OOB line.

White, with one foot OOB, reaches and ties the ball up. Just as I'm blowing my whistle, partner blows from trail and has his thumbs up.

I wave him off, and announce that white was OOB, Black ball.

Had one right at the end of a very close JVB game. Defender is pressing and has the ball-handler trapped in the corner in back court. He ties up the ball. I blow my whistle and signal jump ball just as I hear the offensive coach hollering for a time out. Too late, right?

My partner then gives a tweet-tweet, comes running across, waves off my jump ball and grants the time out.

It turns out that the coach had requested the time out clearly before the tie up. I had been too far away to hear it. My partner, who had recently finished up his football season, out of habit didn't have his whistle in his mouth.

2.6 situation B: A violation and personal contact occur at about the same time. ...........the violation is observed by one official and the contact by the other.

Ruling: The officials shall decide which occurred first. etc. etc.

Sometimes if we have double whistles, I let the other official who has primary coverage area, take have the call. This is why I never make signal until I'm sure of this.

Watching boys varsity, 2 man crew. I'm in the second row right behind trail.

A2 takes a nifty backdoor pass from A1 (trail side of the lane) to the hoop and the the shot gets blocked to the FT line by B1. At the same time lead raises fist and blows whistle for a foul on B1, trail is already giving the "tip sign". He gave it several times...maybe hoping his partner would see him?

Who's area is that in 2 man? When/if/ever should the "tip sign" go up?
Should trail have confired with lead since he was so adamant with his "tip sign"? Or just let it go like he did...maybe they talked later....

In 2-man the Lead has the entire FT lane as part of his PCA. If the play started outside of that on the Trail's side (in his PCA) and went to the block, then the Trail should be taking that play all the way to the basket. (See NFHS officials manual 2.3.2 C1) It seems that the Lead probably made a call on a play in which he had no business getting involved.

What you point out with the "tip sign" is very astute. For this very reason it should NOT be given 99% of the time.

In talking about this exact topic with a partner of mine two days ago, we came up with two instances in which it would be helpful.
1. An official needs help on an OOB call and his partner observed the deflection.
2. The ball comes from the C's primary in the fc and gets touched last by the defense before entering the bc. The C could give this TO HIS PARTNER so that the T doesn't whistle for a bc violation. The T may not know who last touched the ball as it did not come from his PCA.

Other than that, we believe that this "signal" needs to stay in baseball. It can only get basketball officials into trouble such as you described.

I hate the tip sign on a blocked shot. The first reason is that there is absolutely no reason for it - if the ball was blocked and you didn't call a foul, then obviously you judged the block to be clean. The tip sign doesn't calm a coach down who thought his kid was fouled. The tip sign doesn't help your partners out in any way in this situation. There's just no reason for it - the only thing it can do is cause confusion and look poor on just the type of play you described.

That said, Nevada did point out a couple places where it could be useful, but these are related to last touching...

Frankly, it shouldn't (well, needn't, other than "tradition") be used 99% of the time in baseball either.

Good call.

I had something similar the other night, also JVB. A1 bringing the ball across the division line gets trapped. Coach A starts asking for a time out, once, twice, three times. By the third one I had glanced at him and confirmed that his team had the ball, and whistled for the TO.

Just before my whistle, a defender had knocked the ball loose, and Team B recovered it just after the whistle. So to Coach B, this looked like a bad whistle. But I explained to him that I had granted the TO before I whistled. As you might guess, he thought I was wrong. :cool: