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-   -   Whao Has the Final Say? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/40258-whao-has-final-say.html)

tnsteele95 Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:45am

Whao Has the Final Say?
 
Watching a girl's game yesterday, it was tied with 3 seconds left. Team inbounds to half court and throws up the ball as buzzer sounds and swoosh. Was very close, inface I would've said it was still in her hands when buzzer sounded. Anyway, one ref immediately signaled a good three pointer, the other ref, again immediately, signaled that the shot was too late. The whole gym when silent waiting on the verdict. Which ref has the final say?

Nevadaref Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:46am

The referee per 2-5-3.

IHSAref Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:47am

Whoever is the "referee" for the game has the final say. I beleive you could also go to the table personal and see what they say, but the referee has the final say

kbilla Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnsteele95
Watching a girl's game yesterday, it was tied with 3 seconds left. Team inbounds to half court and throws up the ball as buzzer sounds and swoosh. Was very close, inface I would've said it was still in her hands when buzzer sounded. Anyway, one ref immediately signaled a good three pointer, the other ref, again immediately, signaled that the shot was too late. The whole gym when silent waiting on the verdict. Which ref has the final say?

UGH this is why there should only be one official with the signal! Pre-game!! Granted you could still have a situation where the referee could overturn if he/she decided that the original call is clearly wrong, but if you have one official with responsibility for the last shot that is a heckuva lot less likely to happen..

PIAA REF Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:48am

Officials Discuss
 
Lets say they are both adament to on their call, we know they should of discussed it in their pregame but the mistake was still made. This is my thought. Please advise if I am incorrect as I think this out. They get together and discuss, they can't decide on who is right they call the other official over to discuss it and lets pretend he was the R. He tells them I do not know, I was screened and did not see if it was released in time. Then by rule they can ask one other person, the clock operator. A quick sidebar, don't ask the oerator if it was good. Ask him or her where was the ball located when the buzzer was sounded. He he has definitely knowledge we can go by his answer (pray to God he/she is a trustworthy soul) if they don't know and we still don't have an answer and although at this point you feel as if you should be in a Southwest Airline commercial... We would have count the bucket and if it resulted in the end of the game fun like hell to the locker room. If this was the playoffs make it you car.

Rich Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF
Lets say they are both adament to on their call, we know they should of discussed it in their pregame but the mistake was still made. This is my thought. Please advise if I am incorrect as I think this out. They get together and discuss, they can't decide on who is right they call the other official over to discuss it and lets pretend he was the R. He tells them I do not know, I was screened and did not see if it was released in time. Then by rule they can ask one other person, the clock operator. A quick sidebar, don't ask the oerator if it was good. Ask him or her where was the ball located when the buzzer was sounded. He he has definitely knowledge we can go by his answer (pray to God he/she is a trustworthy soul) if they don't know and we still don't have an answer and although at this point you feel as if you should be in a Southwest Airline commercial... We would have count the bucket and if it resulted in the end of the game fun like hell to the locker room. If this was the playoffs make it you car.

I wouldn't do this. I would NEVER ask the table considering up here the timer is hired and paid for by the home school. We would go with the person who WAS SUPPOSED to be responsible for the last shot and the other official would get an earful from both of us in the locker room.

This is the kind of thing I see in JV games all the time. Both officials waving off a shot, or blowing their whistles at the end of the quarter, or both signaling in a substitute. There should be one person signaling or whistling. PERIOD.

Rich Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbilla
UGH this is why there should only be one official with the signal! Pre-game!! Granted you could still have a situation where the referee could overturn if he/she decided that the original call is clearly wrong, but if you have one official with responsibility for the last shot that is a heckuva lot less likely to happen..

It would be a cold day in hell where an R would overturn last second shot responsibilities without the use of a monitor or an impromptu discussion on the floor followed by the original official deciding whether to overturn his own call.. At least I hope so.

JRutledge Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
I wouldn't do this. I would NEVER ask the table considering up here the timer is hired and paid for by the home school. We would go with the person who WAS SUPPOSED to be responsible for the last shot and the other official would get an earful from both of us in the locker room.

This is the kind of thing I see in JV games all the time. Both officials waving off a shot, or blowing their whistles at the end of the quarter, or both signaling in a substitute. There should be one person signaling or whistling. PERIOD.

I completely agree. I am not asking some person that has a vested interest in the outcome. If we are wrong, I would rather be wrong as an official with our decision on the court and not in the hands of some adult whose son or daughter is on the team.

Peace

inigo montoya Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:02pm

What's the proper procedure in a 3-whistle game when a player in the Trail's primary takes a 3-point shot near the buzzer? The C has last-second responsibility, right? So couldn't you have a situation where the Trail is signalling that a 3-pointer was made (preliminary 3-point attempt signal, then signalling the ball went into the basket), but the C saying the shot was taken after the buzzer?

bigdog5142 Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:23pm

I don't know if this is "by the book" or not, but practically, the official that is opposite the clock should probably have the responsibility in 3 man. It's always the trail in two man (unless the school only has one clock in one wall, then it could be the lead). If you're opposite, you have the widest angle to see the clock and the play.

I always pre-game with other officials to indicate what signal we'll use to communicate with each other who has the clock when it's under a minute. I use one finger straight up in the air to get my partner's attention. Then either pat my head if I have it or point to him if I am confirming that my partner has it. Not in the book, but it works.

Rich Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by inigo montoya
What's the proper procedure in a 3-whistle game when a player in the Trail's primary takes a 3-point shot near the buzzer? The C has last-second responsibility, right? So couldn't you have a situation where the Trail is signalling that a 3-pointer was made (preliminary 3-point attempt signal, then signalling the ball went into the basket), but the C saying the shot was taken after the buzzer?

Speaking NFHS, the official opposite the table (not the L) has last second shot responsibility. It could be the C or the T depending how the officials are aligned on the floor.

The C would be emphatically waving off the shot before it ever got near the basket. If the T signals "touchdown" after the C is whistling and waving off the basket, he walks home.

rainmaker Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF
if they don't know and we still don't have an answer and although at this point you feel as if you should be in a Southwest Airline commercial... We would have count the bucket and if it resulted in the end of the game fun like hell to the locker room. If this was the playoffs make it you car.

I agree with Rich that I'd never ask the table in this sitch, but I got a good laugh out of this half of your post. That Southwest Airlines Commercial feeling is definitely a possibility!

rainmaker Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:37pm

According to 2-13, there's nothing to say the table SHOULDN'T be consulted, but the only rule/case book sitch where the table is granted specific authority is when the floor officials don't hear the horn or buzzer. I would infer from that that in the OP, if the officials disagree about whether or not the ball had left the hands of the shooter, table has no say in whether or not to count the basket.

Also, it appears that if the R doesn't have definite knowledge, the basket should be counted as good. Again, those are just my inferences from the rule book.

PIAA REF Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:39pm

I am not saying that I would ask the clock operator but by NFHS rules you can. My biggest point if something like this happens and no one knows for sure if it was good or not we have to count the bucket. Another scenerio is what if we are in a loud gym and can't hear the horn. If no one knows if it should count or not the ruling is it counts.

Mark Padgett Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:52pm

I think in this situation, you should split the difference and give the team one point. If it was a three point attempt, give them one and a half. Who could argue with that? :p

Coltdoggs Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:54pm

Was it the visiting team that hit the last shot or the home team and how far away are the locker rooms? :D

Ok Ok..I'm just playin'...As stated, Pregame for this...I could even make an argument that the official with primary coverage makes this call...Now the L on the long pass from endline is not really the primary on a shot at the 3 point line, but on this particular play he should be in the best/closest position to make this call...How would the T who is inbounding the ball be able to make this?

rainmaker Tue Dec 11, 2007 01:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF
I am not saying that I would ask the clock operator but by NFHS rules you can.

See, I'm not sure this is the case, except where the floor officials didn't hear the horn.
Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF
My biggest point if something like this happens and no one knows for sure if it was good or not we have to count the bucket.

Right, and someone has to know FOR SURE, even the R. If the R wasn't looking, then the R still has to decide, and that decision is that it counts.
Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF
Another scenerio is what if we are in a loud gym and can't hear the horn. If no one knows if it should count or not the ruling is it counts.

If no one hears the horn, table gets first crack at it. If they're not sure, then it counts.

At least, that's how I'm reading 2-13 and the associated case plays.

JugglingReferee Tue Dec 11, 2007 01:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
I think in this situation, you should split the difference and give the team one point. If it was a three point attempt, give them one and a half. Who could argue with that? :p

The good thing about awarding 1½ points is that 99.9 (repeating 9)% chance you're not having overtime.

Mark Padgett Tue Dec 11, 2007 01:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
The good thing about awarding 1½ points is that 99.9 (repeating 9)% chance you're not having overtime.

It is for you other guys. For me, it doesn't matter since I don't allow overtimes no matter what. :rolleyes:

kbilla Tue Dec 11, 2007 01:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
It would be a cold day in hell where an R would overturn last second shot responsibilities without the use of a monitor or an impromptu discussion on the floor followed by the original official deciding whether to overturn his own call.. At least I hope so.


I agree, just throwing it out there as a hypothetical...b/c he/she WOULD have that right....

CLH Tue Dec 11, 2007 01:21pm

I find that in these situations the best way to settle it is with a good 2 out of 3 rock, paper, scissors match.....

CLH

tnsteele95 Tue Dec 11, 2007 03:05pm

Whoa, o.k. maybe I should've elaborated more. This was a middle school game with only two officials, I used the term referee too loosely I suppose. The official under the basket signaled the shot was good, the official in the back court signaled no good. The score keeper was a volunteer from the home school, so I wouldn't have suggested asking them. Hope this is a little more clear.

It was a very odd experience to see a team hit a buzzer beater and 300 people go silent waiting on the call. The officials met for a split second, the "under basket" official again gave the three point signal and disappeared in a hurry. lol

Mark Padgett Tue Dec 11, 2007 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CLH
I find that in these situations the best way to settle it is with a good 2 out of 3 rock, paper, scissors match.....

CLH

Works for me, especially in the mud.

http://oz.plymouth.edu/~cbisson/gfx/...girlsofrps.jpg

Rich Tue Dec 11, 2007 05:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PIAA REF
I am not saying that I would ask the clock operator but by NFHS rules you can. My biggest point if something like this happens and no one knows for sure if it was good or not we have to count the bucket. Another scenerio is what if we are in a loud gym and can't hear the horn. If no one knows if it should count or not the ruling is it counts.

Personally, I do not rely solely on the horn. I have the clock in the corner of my eye and I know *about* when the horn should go. If the clock gets to zero and stops with no horn, I'd better be all over it.

Mark Dexter Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN
Personally, I do not rely solely on the horn. I have the clock in the corner of my eye and I know *about* when the horn should go. If the clock gets to zero and stops with no horn, I'd better be all over it.

Rich - I know that you know this, but I want to point it out for the less experienced:

If the clock is STOPPED (i.e., you have a whistle right near the end of regulation) at :00.0 and there was no horn, the period is not over (NFHS goes by horn, not zeros on the clock).

What Rich said, however, is legitimate. If there has been no whistle, and the clock is at :00.0 for more than a beat, blow your whistle and end the period.

Camron Rust Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdog5142
I don't know if this is "by the book" or not, but practically, the official that is opposite the clock should probably have the responsibility in 3 man. It's always the trail in two man (unless the school only has one clock in one wall, then it could be the lead). If you're opposite, you have the widest angle to see the clock and the play.

Where the clock is located is irrelavant. We don't watch the clock, we listen for the horn. Your eyes can't, at the same time, focus on the clock at 70'-120' away and the play 10-20' away....such that you can see the shooter's hand/ball and also have a reasonable look at the defense. It takes a moment for your eyes to re-focus between objects at such differing distances. In most cases, the best angle to cover the play will not be the same angle need to also watch the clock. That's why we have a horn. Trust your ears and get in the right spot to cover the play.

Nevadaref Wed Dec 12, 2007 03:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tnsteele95
Whoa, o.k. maybe I should've elaborated more. This was a middle school game with only two officials, I used the term referee too loosely I suppose. The official under the basket signaled the shot was good, the official in the back court signaled no good. The score keeper was a volunteer from the home school, so I wouldn't have suggested asking them. Hope this is a little more clear.

It was a very odd experience to see a team hit a buzzer beater and 300 people go silent waiting on the call. The officials met for a split second, the "under basket" official again gave the three point signal and disappeared in a hurry. lol

As you probably know, in the 2-man officiating system there are two officials, one of which is designated the Referee and the other is the Umpire. If the two disagree on whether or not a goal shall count the referee makes the decision.
It's that simple.


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