Hate this Board!!!...(little long)

[egausch]

Well, not really, more on that in a minute. First, a couple tech questions on dribbling. Seen a lot of "carry" calls for what appears to just be a very high dribble. Mostly with younger kids, they simply bounce it to high, over their heads sometimes. I don't see a problem with this, thoughts? Also seen a lot of traveling calls on players who take a lot of steps between dribbles, Three, four, +... Feet are just plain faster than the hands. I was taught long time ago, two steps for every dribble, but reading the NF rules, this doesn't seem to be a problem either, thoughts. Now a question on jump ball calls. It seems that the refs in my league wait a very long time to make this call. Player A1 grabs rebound. Player B1 grabs ball with no contact. They struggle. Stongest wins, play on, else blow whistle. This can get very violent. I've seen smaller kids get thrown to the floor trying to hang on to the rock. My youngest tore a shoulder muscle this WE on this kind of play when a much taller player grabbed the ball from behind and pulled the ball and my son's arms back over his head. Is there some guideline you guys follow before making this call?
Ok, why do I hate this board, because it makes me get into trouble! It also makes me a better coach. Sort of a love /hate thing I guess. This WE we played an 8th/7th grade rec game. First minute, a textbook charge by the opponents point into my top player. Had legal position, facing dribbler, hands up and in the "box". I know time and distance shouldn't matter, but he was standing there for at least a second and a good four feet away. He didn't even move. Point sees the "D", hesitates, continues dribble and drops shoulder right into the chest of my player, trying to draw a foul. TWEET...
Me: "That's gotta be offensive...?"
Ref: "Blocking foul..."
Me: "Are you kidding he dropped shoulder and plowed right into him"
Ref: "Are you going to do this for all the calls in this game?"
Me: " No, just this one!"
Ref: " Do you want some of this?" pointing to his whistle
Me: "No!, (mumble, grumble)" As I sit back down.
Last minute thirty, we're up by 10, have the guys play possesion, no shot clock in this league. Thirty left, up by 7 now. Ball gets loose, they get it, we get, we all scramble for it. My point makes a great hustle play and dives for the loose rock, gets possesion, and slides a couple feet. Before I can call the TO, TWEET...
Ref: " Traveling Violation..."
Me: " Are you kidding? since when is sliding a traveling violation?"
Both refs, the other coaches and several parents have a good chuckle!
Ref: "Read the rules!"
Me: (mumble, grumble) sit back down.
Howled a little but didn't get whacked!
I know I'm right on both of these. I also spoke with another ref I've worked as a scorekeeper with, and have respect for.
I also had a better angle on the charge call, due to poor mechanics, IMHO.
So the point is, many thanks for welcoming coaches onto this board, and maintaining such a high level of interchange. It's a great resource! (Even if it does get me into trouble!!)
EG

[Jim Armstrong]

If your descriptions are accurate, then it sounds like you were right on both calls. I've seen a lot of guys that I think are afraid to make the pc call, maybe because it doesn't happen that much at the lower levels, and I think it takes them by surprise sometimes, because usually kids don't get set, and take a charge at the lower levels. Regarding the travelling call,the NFHS rules review video shows a similiar play. A1 dives for a loose ball, and slides a couple of feet, as long as the player doesn't turn over, or try to get up, they can pass, or request TO, without the travel.

[Bart Tyson]

Obviously you are going to get beginners at this level. Now if you want to pay $150.00 per game, I am sure you could get more experienced officials. Maybe you could leave this Official forum address in their locker room. You might get lucky and they will check it out.

[Danvrapp]

egausch - During my time as a basketball official, I've discovered two things:

The block/charge is the call I struggle with the most. Some times on a bang bang play, a younger official (like myself!) can have a hard time sorting this one out. I've noticed that the top notch officials in my area hardly ever receive greif when they make a tough block / charge call.

Issue two is that younger officials also tend to have a hard time deciphering what is and is not a travel. I'd made it a point to study this rule in it's entirety before the season, and I now feel I get it right 9.5 times out of 10.

And like Bart said, at this level, well, you're not getting tournament-tested quality officials, but they're working their hardest, I'm sure.

[egausch]

Absolutely! I'm not going to jump all over these guys. 90% percent are volunteers. We all make mistakes, players, coaches, and yes, referees. And yes, I've already suggested to some that they also get a copy of the NFHS Case book, and have mentioned boards like this. Some see this as a challenge rather than an opportunity to improve. Others are very receptive and constructive. Dropping an anonymous hint might be a better idea!
EG

[Mark Padgett]

Just to make you feel better, I had a game last Sat. in which a rather rotund player (I'm being nice here - it's better than calling him a porker) dived on the floor after a loose ball. He grabbed it and his momentum made him roll over (sideways - not head over heels) about 3 times. He then came to a stop. My partner immediately called a travel. At the break, I asked him why he called the travel, since it was obvious the roll was caused by the player's momentum (and exacerbated by his extremely low center of gravity).

He told me he had a "two roll rule". If the player rolls over twice, it's a travel. I told him that in our rec league we had a "two rule rule" - that if an official got two rule interpretations wrong in the same game, he didn't get paid - so he had one to go.

He didn't get it.

[Slider]

Originally posted by egausch
Had legal position, facing dribbler, hands up and in the "box".

If the kid had his hands up in front of his chest; it is very tempting to officials to have a hold or block. Make sure they keep the arms up (vertical).

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Slider

If the kid had his hands up in front of his chest; it is very tempting to officials to have a hold or block. Make sure they keep the arms up (vertical).

Hey, wait a second here. Are you saying that our friend
the coach could be confused about block/charge??

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Slider
If the kid had his hands up in front of his chest; it is very tempting to officials to have a hold or block. Make sure they keep the arms up (vertical).

Just remember, even though the officials may call this incorrectly, it is legal to hold the hands directly in front of the body to absorb the force of the contact (10-6-1).

[Brad]

Originally posted by Danvrapp
I've noticed that the top notch officials in my area hardly ever receive greif when they make a tough block / charge call.

Probably because they are getting most of them right

If you officiate the defensive player, you won't have as many problems with it...

To me, the block/charge play is hard for officials just starting out. Once they learn which players to officiate (the defense!) the call is usually pretty easy.

[Brad]

Originally posted by Slider If the kid had his hands up in front of his chest; it is very tempting to officials to have a hold or block. Make sure they keep the arms up (vertical).

I don't agree with this... At least, it's not tempting to me. If the defensive player has position, I certainly don't require him to have his arms straight up -- there are certainly many players that I wouldn't want to take a charge from thataway!

Plus, as pointed out by Mark, a player can put his hands in front of his body -- and can even turn -- to absorb the impact of the offensive player.

[egausch]

Just for clarification, his hands and arms were, "reach(ing) for the sky", and the contact happened about 10ft out from the rim with no shot attempt. It was absolutely a charge. My player is a top player in the league. He's a 6'1", 160lb, athletic, 8th grader that can shoot and dribble, regularly scores 20+ and sometimes 30 a game, but he's very physical. He's often close to fouling out and many times does, and has a rep. He becomes a target for some coaches' strategies, and rightly so. But a cheap foul in this case.
I've been working with him to polish his game and clean-up his D. He now understands what's good defense and has improved a lot. The call was very disappointing from this standpoint. I know he played it perfect, but he gets a bad rap. Hardly ever gets calls his way. Defensive players who foul him usually just bounce off. Not much change in his body position. But this is more a subject for a coaches' forum.
EG

[fisherj]

Most new officials and some old ones have not learned to see the defender before the contact. Moving screens and block/charge require the ability to focus on what happens prior to the infraction. Most officials call a block when they are not sure.

If you were to ask a coach or a fan what the player was doing for the 5 seconds prior to contact they could not tell you.

I agree with the earlier post. You get what you pay for.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Brad I don't agree with this... At least, it's not tempting to me. If the defensive player has position, I certainly don't require him to have his arms straight up -- there are certainly many players that I wouldn't want to take a charge from thataway!

Plus, as pointed out by Mark, a player can put his hands in front of his body -- and can even turn -- to absorb the impact of the offensive player. [/B]

If they extend their arms away from the body when contact is iminent, then it is a block. Plus, the arms must recoil from the impact or it is a block. If they don't want to get "bad" calls, they should have their arms up.

[mlancast]

To comment on your first couple of points:
1) How can you carry the ball if the dribbling hand stays on top of the ball??? The height of the dribble IS NOT a factor;
2) It is not (ever) possible to travel while dribbling;
3) I can understand taking time to call a jump so as to allow players to try and play through, but we have to be careful. Although many say take away the stronger players' advantage, this may put the weaker player at a disadvantage.
For me, if both players ahve possession for more than 1-2 seconds and its a held ball.