Well, not really, more on that in a minute. First, a couple tech questions on dribbling. Seen a lot of "carry" calls for what appears to just be a very high dribble. Mostly with younger kids, they simply bounce it to high, over their heads sometimes. I don't see a problem with this, thoughts? Also seen a lot of traveling calls on players who take a lot of steps between dribbles, Three, four, +... Feet are just plain faster than the hands. I was taught long time ago, two steps for every dribble, but reading the NF rules, this doesn't seem to be a problem either, thoughts. Now a question on jump ball calls. It seems that the refs in my league wait a very long time to make this call. Player A1 grabs rebound. Player B1 grabs ball with no contact. They struggle. Stongest wins, play on, else blow whistle. This can get very violent. I've seen smaller kids get thrown to the floor trying to hang on to the rock. My youngest tore a shoulder muscle this WE on this kind of play when a much taller player grabbed the ball from behind and pulled the ball and my son's arms back over his head. Is there some guideline you guys follow before making this call?
Ok, why do I hate this board, because it makes me get into trouble! It also makes me a better coach. Sort of a love /hate thing I guess. This WE we played an 8th/7th grade rec game. First minute, a textbook charge by the opponents point into my top player. Had legal position, facing dribbler, hands up and in the "box". I know time and distance shouldn't matter, but he was standing there for at least a second and a good four feet away. He didn't even move. Point sees the "D", hesitates, continues dribble and drops shoulder right into the chest of my player, trying to draw a foul. TWEET...
Me: "That's gotta be offensive...?"
Ref: "Blocking foul..."
Me: "Are you kidding he dropped shoulder and plowed right into him"
Ref: "Are you going to do this for all the calls in this game?"
Me: " No, just this one!"
Ref: " Do you want some of this?" pointing to his whistle
Me: "No!, (mumble, grumble)" As I sit back down.
Last minute thirty, we're up by 10, have the guys play possesion, no shot clock in this league. Thirty left, up by 7 now. Ball gets loose, they get it, we get, we all scramble for it. My point makes a great hustle play and dives for the loose rock, gets possesion, and slides a couple feet. Before I can call the TO, TWEET...
Ref: " Traveling Violation..."
Me: " Are you kidding? since when is sliding a traveling violation?"
Both refs, the other coaches and several parents have a good chuckle!
Ref: "Read the rules!"
Me: (mumble, grumble) sit back down.
Howled a little but didn't get whacked!
I know I'm right on both of these. I also spoke with another ref I've worked as a scorekeeper with, and have respect for.
I also had a better angle on the charge call, due to poor mechanics, IMHO.
So the point is, many thanks for welcoming coaches onto this board, and maintaining such a high level of interchange. It's a great resource! (Even if it does get me into trouble!!)
EG

If your descriptions are accurate, then it sounds like you were right on both calls. I've seen a lot of guys that I think are afraid to make the pc call, maybe because it doesn't happen that much at the lower levels, and I think it takes them by surprise sometimes, because usually kids don't get set, and take a charge at the lower levels. Regarding the travelling call,the NFHS rules review video shows a similiar play. A1 dives for a loose ball, and slides a couple of feet, as long as the player doesn't turn over, or try to get up, they can pass, or request TO, without the travel.

Obviously you are going to get beginners at this level. Now if you want to pay $150.00 per game, I am sure you could get more experienced officials. :) Maybe you could leave this Official forum address in their locker room. You might get lucky and they will check it out.

<b>egausch - </b>During my time as a basketball official, I've discovered two things:

The block/charge is the call I struggle with the most. Some times on a bang bang play, a younger official (like myself!) can have a hard time sorting this one out. I've noticed that the top notch officials in my area hardly ever receive greif when they make a tough block / charge call.

Issue two is that younger officials also tend to have a hard time deciphering what is and is not a travel. I'd made it a point to study this rule in it's entirety before the season, and I now feel I get it right 9.5 times out of 10.

And like Bart said, at this level, well, you're not getting tournament-tested quality officials, but they're working their hardest, I'm sure. :)

Absolutely! I'm not going to jump all over these guys. 90% percent are volunteers. We all make mistakes, players, coaches, and yes, referees. And yes, I've already suggested to some that they also get a copy of the NFHS Case book, and have mentioned boards like this. Some see this as a challenge rather than an opportunity to improve. Others are very receptive and constructive. Dropping an anonymous hint might be a better idea!
EG

Just to make you feel better, I had a game last Sat. in which a rather rotund player (I'm being nice here - it's better than calling him a porker) dived on the floor after a loose ball. He grabbed it and his momentum made him roll over (sideways - not head over heels) about 3 times. He then came to a stop. My partner immediately called a travel. At the break, I asked him why he called the travel, since it was obvious the roll was caused by the player's momentum (and exacerbated by his extremely low center of gravity).

He told me he had a "two roll rule". If the player rolls over twice, it's a travel. I told him that in our rec league we had a "two rule rule" - that if an official got two rule interpretations wrong in the same game, he didn't get paid - so he had one to go.

He didn't get it.

If the kid had his hands up in front of his chest; it is very tempting to officials to have a hold or block. Make sure they keep the arms up (vertical).

Hey, wait a second here. Are you saying that our friend
the coach could be confused about block/charge?? ;)

Just remember, even though the officials may call this incorrectly, it is legal to hold the hands directly in front of the body to absorb the force of the contact (10-6-1).

Probably because they are getting most of them <I>right</I> :)

If you officiate the defensive player, you won't have as many problems with it...

To me, the block/charge play is hard for officials just starting out. Once they learn which players to officiate (the defense!) the call is usually pretty easy.

I don't agree with this... At least, it's not tempting to me. If the defensive player has position, I certainly don't require him to have his arms straight up -- there are certainly many players that I wouldn't want to take a charge from thataway! :)

Plus, as pointed out by Mark, a player can put his hands in front of his body -- and can even turn -- to absorb the impact of the offensive player.

Just for clarification, his hands and arms were, "reach(ing) for the sky", and the contact happened about 10ft out from the rim with no shot attempt. It was absolutely a charge. My player is a top player in the league. He's a 6'1", 160lb, athletic, 8th grader that can shoot and dribble, regularly scores 20+ and sometimes 30 a game, but he's very physical. He's often close to fouling out and many times does, and has a rep. He becomes a target for some coaches' strategies, and rightly so. But a cheap foul in this case.
I've been working with him to polish his game and clean-up his D. He now understands what's good defense and has improved a lot. The call was very disappointing from this standpoint. I know he played it perfect, but he gets a bad rap. Hardly ever gets calls his way. Defensive players who foul him usually just bounce off. Not much change in his body position. But this is more a subject for a coaches' forum.
EG

Most new officials and some old ones have not learned to see the defender before the contact. Moving screens and block/charge require the ability to focus on what happens prior to the infraction. Most officials call a block when they are not sure.

If you were to ask a coach or a fan what the player was doing for the 5 seconds prior to contact they could not tell you.

I agree with the earlier post. You get what you pay for.

If they extend their arms away from the body when contact is iminent, then it is a block. Plus, the arms must recoil from the impact or it is a block. If they don't want to get "bad" calls, they should have their arms up.

To comment on your first couple of points:
1) How can you carry the ball if the dribbling hand stays on top of the ball??? The height of the dribble IS NOT a factor;
2) It is not (ever) possible to travel while dribbling;
3) I can understand taking time to call a jump so as to allow players to try and play through, but we have to be careful. Although many say take away the stronger players' advantage, this may put the weaker player at a disadvantage.
For me, if both players ahve possession for more than 1-2 seconds and its a held ball.

Jump ball call
 

I think the length of time you wait to blow a jump is highly dependent on the level of game play and flow of the game in question. Middle School game with 30 jump balls = hold the whistle a little longer. Frosh girl with 15 jumps = let them play a little, but not as much as middle school. At higher levels with bigger and stronger players, letting the players fight for a ball that is held is inviting conflict between the players. How many fights/verbal spats/staredowns/etc. happen after loose ball/held ball situations. Quite a few. A quicker whistle for the held ball can defuse some of the emotion here.

You should give a jump when ... "Opponents have their hands so firmly on the ball that control cannot be obtained without undue roughness." (NHFS Rule4 Section 25 ART.1) When you, as an official, see Shaq & Spud Web obtaining equal control of the ball you had better be pretty quick on the whistle. On the other hand let equal "Titans" have an opportunity to play through. You have to adjust to this situation just as you do any other area that may create rough play.

Great point Ridge. No matter what level you ref, be aware of size mismatches on ball tie-ups. We have some strong players on our team who have found themselves tied up by far smaller players. When the ref is slow with the whistle, the smaller player goes flying (when they hold tightly to the ball). For some reason, our small players seem to be able to hold their own!? I have felt that most times the player went flying because the whistle was delayed too much.

To address the first part of your post, it's not palming/carrying just because the ball was dribbled high. Although a couple of weeks ago, I did have a fan tell me that it's palming anytime the ball is bounced higher than the shoulder. :(

With regards to traveling and dribbling, you cannot travel during a dribble. It's a basketball fundamental. It doesn't matter how many steps you take between dribbles.

I'm gonna echo that sentiment. As a Rook, I would say the toughest call for me is the block / charge. Sometimes it can happen so fast you have no idea who got there first.

I also hate the loose ball mad scramble for the ball. I think I tend to call a jump to quickly but when I see A1 with the ball and B1 cleanly get his / her hands on it so that they almost both have it...I go with the whistle and a jump before it gets nutty. I'm probably wrong but then most of my sitchs involving a tied up ball this season has been 3rd - 8th grade...and of course mostly girls. Something about girls basketball that coaches overcoach tying the ball up or just that girls hang it out there to get tied up.

Traveling...I struggle with the carry too. Pivot foot changes or extra steps are easy. The Carry for me is also a toughie.

Larks - Veteran In Training

So the point is, many thanks for welcoming coaches onto this board, and maintaining such a high level of interchange. It's a great resource! (Even if it does get me into trouble!!)
EG [/QUOTE]

Dont Hate the board....hate the game.....or the playa....or something like that.

Let us use better slang.
 

Dont Hate the board....hate the game.....or the playa....or something like that. [/QUOTE]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. :)

Slang lesson is over.

Peace

rookie help
 

Here are a few tidbits of information from a veteran (10 yrs.) but learning everyday. One thing about the block charge call:it is important to establish the defenders position prior to the contact. Some vets call it officiating the defense. This applies off ball especially. You will have better success on the block/charge calls if you work hard on your off ball coverage. This will give you a better view of the play prior to the contact. Don't feel pressure to make a call just because of contact. If it isn't a major run-down of a player,and you don't know if the defensive player had position or not, don't just guess. I know you will take heat for not making a call, but it is better to make a no call than a guess. This also applies to the ball going out of bounds. If your partner can't help and you aren't sure, always go with the alternate possession. You will get more credibility from coaches than making something up. Obviously, they know that you didn't see the play when you looked to your partner for help so they will know if you made something up.
Keep the players "straight up"!

If they extend their arms away from the body when contact is iminent, then it is a block. Plus, the arms must recoil from the impact or it is a block. If they don't want to get "bad" calls, they should have their arms up. [/B][/QUOTE]A defensive player extending their arms away from their body does not automatically make the call a block.The call is dependant on where the contact occurs.If the contact is on the extended arms or elbows,etc.-i.e. outside the frame of the defender's torso-,then you have a foul on the defender.If the contact is by the dribbler on the torso of the defender,you have a charge.The position of the defender's arms has no bearing at all if the dribbler makes contact on the defender's torso,unless the defender uses his arms to push off.As Brad said,if you watch the defender,you can usually pick-up the point-of-contact fairly easily-and then make your call off of that.

JR,
I usually call that "Holding" and reserve the "Block" for lower body contact by the defender.
Either way, we get to blow the whistle and put up our fist.
mick

Good point,mick,I should have added that!I use the "hold" signal,too-even though I've had a few interpreter gurus argue that the only correct signal in this case is "illegal use of hands".In my defense,I gotta tell ya that as I was writing the above,Mikey(my main dog) and Vesta(my back-up dog)were yapping at me to go down and let them out-so I was in a hurry.Will you buy that one?:D

Mark, that reminded me of Tuesday night when we were watching the JV game waiting for our varsity games, the ref was very animated and funny but not very good, seemed like they called 100 fouls and put us behind by 45 minutes with a snowstorm moving in. Two girls from same team come down with rebound, neither moving feet and one pulls it away. He blows the whistle and sells "automatic travelling" because two players from the same team touched it. It was amusing for awhile, he had a football shirt, white socks, a broken belt loop, but after we realized how far behind he was putting us it lost some shine.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

I've had a few interpreter gurus argue that the only correct signal in this case is "illegal use of hands".

JR, I would not go so far as to say it's the "only" correct signal, but in the case we're talking about, I would also go with illegal use of hands.

Quote:

In my defense,I gotta tell ya that as I was writing the above,Mikey(my main dog) and Vesta(my back-up dog)were yapping at me to go down and let them out-so I was in a hurry.Will you buy that one?:D

C'mon, JR. You can do better than that! Did they eat your homework too? :D

Chuck

Re: Let us use better slang.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. :)

Rut, you been watching too much SportsCenter with Stuart Scott. ;)

Chuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slider

Quote:

Plus, the arms must recoil from the impact or it is a block.

Slider, what does this even mean? I don't understand what you're trying to say. And if I think about it and guess what you mean, then I think you're totally wrong about it.

Why would "recoiling arms" be necessary to draw a charge? Can you explain this a little better?

Chuck

I talked about the jump ball last night with a fan and he complained that he thought the officials (high school varsity) in our area called it too quick. I told him my philosophy was if they are on their feet give them a little time to play through it and if they are on the floor get it quick. Anyone else use this?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Slider Quote: Plus, the arms must recoil from the impact or it is a block. Slider, what does this even mean? I don't understand what you're trying to say. And if I think about it and guess what you mean, then I think you're totally wrong about it. Why would "recoiling arms" be necessary to draw a charge? Can you explain this a little better? Chuck

I think Slider went to the definitions for that one,Chuck.I remembered something in there,so I just looked it up.See R4-24-3.This talks about a screen mainly,but I think that is what Slider was referring to.Could be wrong,though.Certainly wouldn't be the first time this week.:DMaybe he'll enlighten us later.

R4-24-3
 

Ah, thanks JR. I see now why he chose those words. He just worded it badly. It's not that "the arms MUST recoil or it's a block". It's "if the defender is moving to cushion the contact, his movement must be 'recoiling' from the offensive player; not toward the offensive player". Thanks.

Chuck