Coach talking trash!!
 

I had a Varsity game last night. A player from team A tells one of my partners that the coach from team B keeps yapping at him. As I am administering a throw in close to the team B Bench, I hear the coach of team B tell this kid,( I am parphrashing) "you are a dirty player, have been for 3 years, someday you will get yours you big thug" So I bang him. He can't believe I did that. I tell him we would allow another player to say those things why would we allow him?

What are everyones thoughts?

Sounds like a good T. Absolutely no reason for that to be going on.

You shouldn't even be having second thoughts here. He earned it and you obliged him. Good T!

Indiana resident and fellow ref wants to know which HS! :D

Have you had the opprotunity to see the kid from Luers (the frosh) play? His name escapes me right now...I want to say DeShawn ?

Whack
 

If there was ever an automatic T category, this is a member of that category.

Would anyone think that ejecting this jerk would be going too far?

Can we do that? I really can't stand the thought of a coach talking to a kid like that.

Rita

You can always issue a flagrant technical foul to any coach on the bench. That requires that they leave the gym.

And a phone call to the AD is in order.

I don't want to say the name of the school or coach but he has been around for awhile.

Coltdoggs, I have seen Deshawn Thomas play multiple times and he is outstanding. He is a Soph by the way. He is committed to Ohio St. but says he is still looking around. He has a posse which is a little concerning.

I'd want to be there and see it myself, but a flagrant T could certainly be in order in this situation.

I'm sure someone would think so, but I wouldn't. I'd certainly consider it.

Flagarant T ... never heard that or seen it.

If I had been in the stands, I would have been disapointed if you had NOT called the Tech. GOOD CALL !

Unless you're willing to make the same flagrant call on one of the players for the same thing, I don't think you can really justify it on the coach.

In this particular case I think I agree with your conclusion, that this is at most borderline flagrant.

However, I'm not sure I agree with your premise: do you really not hold the coaches to a higher standard, since they're (legally) adults?

Generally speaking, I hold players and coaches to the same standard: the rules of the game. There is nothing about trash talking that makes it worse for an adult to do than a child. And in the cases of both children and adults I prefer to apply the minimum penalty for a behavior issue that will solve the problem.

BITS, I as well disagree with your premise. The distinction isn’t between an adult and child, but the coach and the player. I believe we as officials should hold the coach to a higher standard. It’s his job to master the rules as well as coach his players. The coach has more influence on his players then his players may have on their teammates. If I want the coach to set an example for his players, then I am going to make an example out of the coach. If not, then I’ve just advocated the coach’s behavior and the players will follow suit because all they’ll get is a “T” and 1 towards their foul count. Then you have a bunch of unruly, unsporting participants in your game which could turn your game ugly real quick. JMO.

I see no problem in holding a coach to a different standard when it comes to talking to opposing players. Players are emotionally involved in the game with peers. Now and then, in this day and age, there's going to be some comments, and I have no problem warning a player before whacking them if it's not out of hand.

A coach, on the other hand, has absolutely no business at all interacting with players from the opposing team in any way, shape, or form. I'm not saying I'd definitely give a flagrant in this situation, just that I'd give a flagrant to a coach for this type of behavior before I'd give one to another player.

And your rules support for this? :confused:

And coaches are NOT emotionally involved?!?! They are also competing with their peers. Should they be jawing with players? Obviously not, but neither should the players.

Players have no business taunting opponents either. Why different penalties for the same offense?

We may disagree on this, but I've seen numerous cases of players having a bit of fun talking to each other. If I can get this ended without a technical foul, I'm going to do so.

A coach is emotionally involved with the game as a coach - not as a peer to the players as I said in my previous post. That's why there is a difference.

I'd call the technical and then make sure that the AD knows what the coach was doing. After that, it is up to them and possibly the next crew that has the team to take care of it. I would have a hard time calling this flagrant.

But he is absolutely competing with his peer on the other bench. It's difficult to jaw with the opposing coach, but if a player is standing right in front of your bench and giving crap to one of your own players, it would be very easy to say something to that player.

Again, should he speak to the player? Obviously not. But I see no reason to consider it more grievous than a player taunting a player or a coach taunting a coach. It's taunting. Deal with it for what it is, by the rules. We shouldn't insert our own "morality" into the situation, IMHO.

It's in the rulebook, but not in the rules section. Read the Coaches Code of Ethics. That's the standard that I will hold them to and enforce the rules by.

Bad idea. Are you going to issue the coach a flagrant technical foul for not mastering the rules or for not teaching them to his/her players? Are you going to issue a flagrant technical foul for not exerting his influence when the spectators show bad sportsmanship? Are you going to issue a flagrant technical when the coach is not working closely with the cheerleaders?

Those are all things that are part of the coaches' code of ethics. If you're not going to give a flagrant T for all of them, why would you give a flagrant T for yelling at an opposing player?

Hmm. Interesting points. I think the coach should be held to a higher standard, but I'm not sure I have any rules reference for that. But I also don't think it's just "my morality". Have to figure out how to make that play out in practice.

But the OP seems flagrant to me not because it's a coach, but because of the words said. I'd call it flagrant if a player said it, too. It's the threatening and personal nature of it that seems really over the top to me. It's not just team-on-team name-calling or taunting, it's viciously and destructively aimed at a specific person. Really, really not acceptable on any level.

That has nothing to do with this scenario.

And absolutely inappropriate (we agree on this, I know), regardless of what was being said by the player. The only thing the coach should do in this instance is attempt to draw the officials' attention to the problem.

This has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with appropriate adult behavior as defined by the NFHS and our education system.

If a kid in the hallway during school punches another kid, he gets suspended. If a teacher punches a kid, he gets fired. To me, it's the same principle on the basketball court.

Really? Just suspended? I don't think so. But even so, your point is well taken. Teacher punches kid, he'll never teach again whereas the kid could probably get into another school somewhere.

But the principle is good, and even more true as the age of the players goes lower. In college, the OP is bad. In hs JV it's worse. At the jh level, it's almost a firing offense, seems to me. Disparity in the ages between the coach and the player makes some difference in my thinking.

Scrapper, I never said I was going to give a flagrant in the OP. I was just disagreeing with BITS premise that we treat the coach and the player in the same manner.

Not that it really matters, but yes I've seen a lot of kids just get suspended for getting in a fight. In fact, expulsion would be pretty rare and only for an egregious repeat offense anywhere that I've been involved.

DON'T call a flagrant on this. Reserve that for things like throwing chairs or, if strictly verbal, where the coach's words are enticing their players into bad behavior -- OR, something very similar. This isn't one of those situations.

Simply T, then, if you feel its necessary to escalate it, go through your reporting system to the state.

Okay. I'm pretty sure a kid would get expelled here, but then we rarely have fights around here that don't escalate into riots with weapons and damaged property. At least that what's my teenagers have been telling me.

Really? I'm willing to be persuaded, but the threatening nature of what he said seems pretty ugly to me, not just normal trash-talking. And I really don't like it coming from a coach to an opponent player.

I'd be interested in hearing from others, too. Seems like it's not cut and dried. WE all agree it's a T for either a player or a coach. Would anyone give a flagrant to a player for these kinds of trash talkings? How about a coach?

I don’t know if I'd call this flagrant or not, but I'd be tempted. I certainly wouldn't tell another official he was wrong for doing it. At minimum, it's an easy T with a very detailed report to the state. And yes, Nevada, I'd report this to the state even if they didn't require a report for each and every T.

I don’t know if this was a real threat so much as an abstract one, or a prediction. If it really sounded like a plausible threat, though, I think a flagrant would be in order. I'd have to be there and hear his tone of voice to determine that, though. I'd be more inclined to take it as a serious threat, though, than not. Again, if another official judged this to be a serious threat, I'd hope they'd go straight to flagrant.

I agree completely - any kind of threat deemed serious simply can't be tolerated.

No punches were being thrown. So the comparisons to such completely outrageous behavior are false. This is not a legal issue or a workplace issue. This is a basketball game, and the offense in question is directly covered by the rules. The prescribed penalty for taunting an opponent is a T, not a flagrant T.

Now if you believe the coach was making an actual threat to this kis, that's an entirely different matter than taunting. That's assault and not only should the coach leave, but the police should probably get involved.

Without being there and seeing it, there is no way to know if it would be flagrant or not. IMO, there certainly could be taunting that rises to a level to be deemed flagrant (a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct).

Also, most of us realize that this is not the same as punches thrown in the hallway. I was simply pointing out that teachers' actions toward students are held to a different standard than students' actions toward other students. I believe the same applies in a basketball game.

All that said, from what was explained in the OP I doubt I would have issued a flagrant T. The question I've argued was whether a coach's actions toward an opposing player should be held to a different standard than a player's. I believe there is a different standard.

Just to throw in my two pennies:

Easy T. I, too, would think about making it flagrant. Kind of doubt I would go that far, but I would certainly consider it. I suppose it depends on the nature of the game up to that point, to some extent.

Great question - should coaches be held to a higher standard than players? Most certainly so, in my opinion - and it has nothing to do with rules. It has to do with his/her level of responsibility as a leader and educator - and yes, also as an adult who is supervising children.

Example, let's say a coach shoves an opposing player. For a player, that's a T (maybe flagrant). For a coach, that would be an automatic flagrant - we can't have adults taunting and shoving children around on the high school basketball court.

I agree.

I called a regular T on this once. It's one of only two times where I wish I could go back and call it flagrant.