4-Point Play?
 

JV-Boys game, NFHS rules (home team was even in white!).

A1 shoots a 2-point jumpshot while just inside the 3-point line while loosely guarded by B1. A1 returns to the floor. While the ball is in the air, A1 takes a step toward the basket to begin getting into position for a possible rebound. B1 reaches out with an arm across A1's midsection and clearly holds him. *tweet*. Ball goes in.

The foul on B1 is the 7th team foul therefore A is in the bonus.

Count the basket (2 points), A1 will shoot the one-and-one?

What was reported to the table was "Basket counts [with appropriate signal]. After the shot but before the ball went in there was a foul by B1. That is the seventh team foul for B, therefore A will shoot one and one."

B head coach obviously was upset and looked at me like I had two heads. Fans obviously don't understand the "4 point play" and how you can have one-and-one on a made basket.

Lead is POSITIVE the foul occurred after the continuous motion of the shooter. Did we get this right?

Yep.

When the shooter returned to the floor he was, well...no longer a shooter...

You had a foul committed by B AFTER THE SHOT so I would say this was done properly if I am reading it correctly...

When B's head coach asked if the foul was on the shooter, I replied that "the player who tried for goal was the same player who got fouled, but that he was no longer a shooter once he returned to the floor. The foul occurred well after the shot." I was careful not to reply that his player had "fouled the shooter" after the shot or otherwise. The (ball-watching) Trail agreed the foul was after the shot attempt.

"No, coach, the rebounder got fouled."

Do you call the foul "after the shot" when the defender "boxes out" the shooter by ramming his/her butt into the shooter after the shooter's feet have returned to the floor and then backing into the shooter knocking him/her over?

You should.

Is there displacment or would you deem the ramming as incidental..;)

Edit: just reread and it clearly says knocking them over....

Yeah...foul after the shot...But to my first response, look at the contact and see what's happening...be careful too...you may get a kid who who starts anticipating this and flops...

Yes, just think about it this way - the term "airborne shooter" is actually redundant. You can't have a shooter without him/her being airborne. Except, of course, if it's 1960 and they're Don Nelson shooting a set shot. :p

We had similar plays 3 times Monday night. We had a JV college men's team against a very good rec team. 3 times in the game a 3 point shooter for the rec team got pushed after he returned to the floor. We called it on the rebound every time. They were all easy since he barely left the floor to shoot.

The foul you called as described in the OP is one that I would hold my whistle for a half-second on. The player gets the shot off. In the event it doesn't go in, is it a long rebound that the shooter would legitimately have a chance at getting? Is someone else from the shooting team going to get the rebound if it happens to be a shorter rebound? If it goes in, is there really an advantage being gained? It's clearly illegal, but is the hold going to cause an obvious situation where B yanks A's jersey down or pulls him to the ground? I could see if its a situation where A might be knocked down and possibly injured, but based on the limited description it sounds like B might just be a little grabby and not necessarily intent on knocking A down with an aggressive box-out. Once you call this foul, you've now put your crew in the position of having to look for something relatively minor at the other end because I guarantee the coach is now going to be nitpicking all rebounding contact. I would think that the coach would be less likely to have a negative reaction if you had called the foul on the shot, as long as you could articulate what had happened (or even if you couldn't).

CJ:

Grow a pair!!!
Who gives a rat's toches about the coach and his reaction. The contact was judged to have put the player at a disadvantage. I can't believe you suggest a made-up foul so as to appease the coach.

I agree with the first part of what you wrote, but disagree strongly with the second half.

I don't agree with the having to find something on the other end to please the coach that is upset with the call. No reason to change the way things are called just because the coach is upset.

However, I do agree with the patient whistle part. I don't think you go as far as judging whether A1's teamate would get the rebound, but if the shot is missed and the hold causes A1 a disadvantage in trying to rebound the ball you call it then. As justacoach was aluding to, don't worry about the coaches reaction, explain the situation and continue to call your game.

This is absolutely wrong! :eek: The act of shooting begins with the habitual motion that precedes the release of a try. So as soon as you start the shooting motion, you're a shooter, regardless of whether you're airborne or not.

If you start the motion, get fouled, but never get airborne, you're still going to the line to shoot 2.

You absolutely can have a shooter without him/her being airborne.

It was still fairly early in the game and B already had [six] fouls. So when a defensive player reaches an arm all the way across an offensive player's body in order to prevent rebounding position, I fail to see how this will prevent future problems. He didn't just grab jersey - the arm was extended all the way across and it happened right in front of me. If they can't control themselves and avoid fouling at low speeds near the perimeter, I feel I'm only encouraging more contact at higher speeds and inside.

You know...you have a VERY valid point...(I think OP may have been talking about a set shooter's try ending though...

I agree with the motion part of your post Scrapper....Take the post player who in all reality gives a pump fake to get the guard off the floor and gets heavy contact. Let's say I didn't just tell you it was a pump fake and he really intended to shoot the ball but the contact was such that he couldn't get the shot off....You have to be going shooting foul b/c his motion before the release (even though it was a pump fake) must be judged as such...shooting motion, even though he's on the floor

I can give you one better from my sophomore year in HS. Shooter goes up and hits a 3. After the shot, he is fouled and the opposing team is over the limit for team fouls. He steps to the line for a potential 5-point play, but missed the front end of the 1-and-1.

It was a running joke for the rest of the year that he could hit contested 20 footers with ease, but couldn't shoot a free throw. :cool:

I too encourage a slow whistle to see how the play develops. It doesn't matter that it was right in front of you or that it was all the way across his body. If the play is just too rough or the game needs some calming down, call it quickly. Aside from that....see the whole play and the effect of the contact....if it made a difference, call it. It the shot goes in or the rebound doesn't come anywhere near them, don't call it....it's generally not a foul if there is no advantage.

I can beat that. A1 makes a 3 point shot and is fouled by B1 after he returns to the floor. That was the 7th foul. A1 makes the first shot, misses the second, get the rebound, shoots and makes it. 6 points right there by the same player.

Thank you for your opinion. At this point in my life, I am more concerned with calling the game in a way is consistent with the rules and in making sure that we maintain control of it for 32 minutes. If by definition holding is not reaching your arm across an opponent's body and impeding his progress so that he cannot occupy a position on the court he would otherwise be legally entitled to, then I'm not sure what is.

All of what you said is true, but what is missing is the concept of advantage/disadvantage. Contact alone doesn't make it a foul. The effect of the contact makes it a foul.

Scrapper1,
Does the shooter, if they don't become airborne ever on the shot, have to release the ball in order to be considered a shooter? Some of the 5th graders don't jump with the ball and don't release the ball when they hear the whistle.

You obviously haven't worked any games around here. There's some players with "credit card hops."

NO. The act of shooting begins with the starting of the motion. The foul could prevent the release of the ball, yet the player was still fouled in the act of shooting and is entitled to FTs.

I don't mean this as offensive, but this mentality will only work if you are calling middle school girls games where nobody can work through some contact.

If you are working higher than this or want to, you need to learn to call based on advantage/disadvantage. Being consistent doesn't mean calling every bit of contact a foul.

True, true...plus I can't even remember the last time I was airborne on a shot. Must have been about 20 years ago!! But I can still shoot...I just can't jump worth beans.:mad:

No, you're not but you are missing the point. That point is too have a slow whistle and wait to see if the contact effects the play.

If the shot goes in, then the arm across the chest has no effect on the play. If a rebound goes to the opposite side, then there's no effect on the play. If the rebound comes off to that side, now you have a player at a disadvantage. TWEET!

If he knocks him to the floor, that's a different story.

It's not just his opinion. It's the officiating philosophy of advantage/disadvatage that quality officals adhere to. To just blindly make a call because the rule book says something does NOT make one a good official. I would suggest you open your NFHS rule book and read the page before rule one. It explains this philosophy. There's no reason to call this a foul except that you think the rule book says to. It does NOT.

When you joined this forum in November, you told us that you were a 2nd year official. Don't take this the wrong way but that's apparent with this call. You were smart enough to join this forum. Take what the veterans here are giving you and add it to your game.

#1, SLOW your whistle down because I can guarantee you it's too fast. All new officials have this issue.

#2, WAIT and see the whole play. That may mena blowing your whistle late but that's okay. Watch an NBA game, they do it all the time.

Or, just ignore us as a bunch of old guys who don't know what we're talking about.

I hope you're smart enough to figure which road to choose.

Not in the Bonus
 

We discussed fouls when the team is in the bonus but what happens when B1 fouls A1 ("Rebounder") after the shot is up but before it goes in and there is less then 6 team fouls:

NFHS?


NCAA?

(If this doesnt' make sense let me know, Thanks!)

A gets the ball, whether or not the try is successful.

In both NCAA and NHFS... Thanks!

...for a designated spot throw-in at the spot nearest the foul.

Believe it or not, sometimes coaches do know the rules and use a situation like this to try and "work" the officials. Last year I had a similar situation. I am T and A1 takes a three-pointer. He is hit hard enough for a foul just as he returns to the floor (A is in the double bonus). He misses the shot but I report it as a shooting foul (my opinon) and give three shots. B coach is not irate but does question it beacuse he says contact was after A1 came down and he should only get two shots. Fast forward to a later date and I am having a discussion with the same coach (I think it was a summer tourney). We actually somehow get on this exact play and I ask him "If A1 had made the shot for a three pointer, and I said the foul was AFTER the shot, like you argued, you would not have been happy if I gave them three points and the two foulf shots, correct?" His answer was I was probably right. Either way I think I was going to hear it that night so, sometimes coaches just feel the need to say something to you.