Officials as players
 

My 2 sons, 14 and 16, play for their HS JV and V teams. They are also state patched officials and still officiate in a highly competitive youth league. They are thoroughly grounded in the FED rules and their practical application.

As captains, they have the prerogative to speak to the officials at appropriate times during the course of the game.

They don't identify themselves as officials except by using the vernacular common to our profession.

What would be the proper approach when intelligently asking officials about blatantly kicked calls or obvious mis-applications of the rules?

I have instilled my philosophy in them but am seeking your opinions

How many of you would even give them the time of day?

As usual, all meaningful responses appreciated

I would be willing to listen to them and if something could be fixed due to something that they pointed out, I would try to do so.
However, most calls that are "blatantly kicked" aren't fixable situations, they are just bad calls that have to be accepted as part of the game.

I would advise them to only inquire about a rule interpretation or rule enforcement situation. I would tell them to roll their eyes and not say a word about any judgment call.

Your sons should concentrate on being players when they are playing. As a player, you can't control the decisions that officials make, regardless of how long you've been reffing or how knowledgable you are. It's hard enough to focus on playing the game let alone to referee while playing. Trying to gain some sort of an edge on the referees at that level will detract from the level of focus needed on playing.

Lastly, if your sons are officiating, they should know that they have different angles on plays than the referees and know that we will miss some plays. The best thing they could do as captains is to keep their teammates under control and focused on the game rather than the officiating. Anytime a player or a team becomes fixated or distracted by the officiating, or other factors beyond their control, it usually leads to negative results for them.

Excellent advice imo.

And if they rolled their eyes at me, they sureashell wouldn't be getting any answers from me later on re: rules interpretations/enforcement either. And if they asked why they weren't gonna get an answer, they'd hear <i>"Why do you want an answer? So that you can roll your eyes again and show everybody in the gym what a doofus I am?"</i>

Great advice, Nevada. Advise players to openly show their disgust at an official's call. Heckuva idea. :rolleyes:

Human emotion is heavily involved in contests and if the method used to avoid speaking to officials about judgments that are very different from the norm, then I say go for it. The captain in this case is then doing the proper thing: avoiding a discussion about judgment while still venting his emotion.

If an official can't handle a V player rolling his eyes, maybe he should be officiate tidleywinks.

Oh? Do you let 'em jump up and down as long as they don't say anything? Throw their arms up in the air? Smack walls? Kick chairs? Is that all OK as long as they're not saying anything but just "venting their emotions"?

Hey, if <b>you</b> want to let the l'il sh!ts make <b>you</b> look like a <i>schvantz</i>, be my guest. I'm not, and I never have been, into letting ballplayers make me look like an idiot.

Note that I didn't say that you should nail them with a "T". I said that you show them the same respect that they showed you. Which is none!

I think your Sons should remember the tone they prefer to have someone come to them with if they need to approach an official.
I do not advise them asking about a judgment call. However, I have no problem with them telling me something like: "could you watch their screens? I'm not sure they are staying set" or "my post player said #54 is holding his jersey during post play, could you please take a look at it?"
Others have also stated that if he is spending any energy worrying about the officials, he is not going to be the player his team needs him to be.

My Son has also started officiating and this is the exact advice I gave him. I believe being an official has helped him be a better player and vis-a-versa.

To answer your specific questions...

No. No. No. No.

There's a far cry between a player rolling their eyes, which is highly likely that few people will see compared to that player who goes to the endline and smacking the wall in a high school gym. If you feel that the rolling of the eyes should be addressed, then a quick conversation with him/her or their coach has always worked for me.

As for people talking to me, I don't care if I've previously T'd them up or used a preventative officiating technique: if they ask in a polite and respectful manner, they get my attention. That's how do I my job: with integrity.

Edit: or, not of.

Um, yeah, I think that I already said that the eye-rolling should be addressed. And I've said that personally I'd address it too.

But, you're now saying that a quick conversation with the player/coach has already worked for <b>you</b>. That's kinda confusing since you've also already gone on the record as also saying that a player rolling his eyes is doing the proper thing and that anybody that can't handle a player doing that that should be doing tiddleywinks. Soooooo, that's kinda confusing to me. Are you saying that you recommend that others should leave it alone but you'd personally address it(and have already done so)? Or that <b>you</b> should be doing tiddleywinks because <b>you</b> have addressed eye-rolling in the past?

Pick a side, please.

Wow! A Yiddish reference. I'm impressed! :)

A son of an retired official around here got into the habit of asking way too many questions about 'What happened?'. Unless they have striped shirts on, they need to focus on playing.

Yep. One of the 1,029 Yiddish terms for the male anatomy. Now that's impressive.

In response to the OP, I'd say tell the players to not talk to the officials. Officials that can handle it won't be making many obviously kicked calls, and officials who are a little iffy in their calling may not have the kind of attitude that would adjust for being corrected by a player (Speaking as an official that can be somewhat iffy in my calling). They need to focus on talking to their teammates about following the rules and using their rules knowledge as an advantage -- a legal advantage! And on learning to respect appropriate authority, and accepted what comes from the officials.

In my six years of working JV/Varsity I think I have talked to a designated captain only once or twice. I will listen to any player that addresses me respectfully and has a concern that they want me to pay more attention to. I don't think that I would ever speak with any player (captains included) about a kicked call or "mis-application" unless it is something we corrected or it was a confusing situation. And at that point, I think I would take the conversation to the coach.

It's good that they don't identify themselves as officials. I would stop listening to them even faster than when a coach says "Well I'm an official too and....". I guess if anything, I would say that their "knowledge" would best be used to educate their teammates and probably even the coach rather than engage the officials working their games.

[QUOTE=JRutledge]This is why he needs to stick to quoting rules....
___________________________________

But Rut, give credit where it's due. The guy can seriously quote rules.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've only had a captain ask about a call once and that was when the ball got stuck onthe dribbler's hip and I had a travel. The one exception was an 8th garde Jr. High player with special education/developmental needs playing in a team with other players who did not. After he would foul he would ask me what he did wrong. I did answer him each time and was glad to do so!

My exact words to them are to "bite your tongue" and not say a word about any judgement call.
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

Rolling their eyes are strictly reserved for interactions w/ mom and dad!
I think evan Jurassic would approve of that one.

I do encourage them to provide appropriate hints in the case of improper rules interps/enforcement.

Here's an example...
OOB play, Bonus in effect both ways. B2 is pushed by A3, whistle and foul called on A3. Official starts to administer throw-in for B. Time-out is granted and captain approaches U2 and remarks "No team control on throw-in, we should be shooting FT for bonus" U2 stays with the call but goes tp ask U1 who also upholds the throw-in decision. Finally R approaches and decides to award FT.
Justice (and diplomacy) prevails.

This invites another question for you good folks...
Is this sitch correctable under 2-10 and what are the applicable timelines involved as to clock running or not?

Thanks

1) Just for the record, I don't think that there's anything the matter with <b>any</b> player on the floor going to an official and politely asking them for an explanation. That player should get their explanation.

2) "Rolling the eyes" isn't asking for an explanation. It's publicly passing judgment on a call, and also showing everybody that the official's judgment was wrong.

3) Yes, it's correctable under 2-10-1(a)-"failure to award a merited free throw." All correctable errors must be caught by the first dead ball after the clock has properly started. So, in this case, there's no problem correcting it because the clock never did start. Even if the throw-in had been administered and the clock had started, the call could still be corrected up to and during the next dead ball.

I certainly don't condone disrespectful gestures or body language. About the only time they would pose a question would be in a rhetorical fashion in the face of an obvious boot.

Surely it is such a rare occurrence that a HS player has even half a clue as to the proper application of the rules that most of us would be awestruck!!

I am in complete agreement that there is no justification to be second guessing judgement calls, and all such efforts are counter productive. On the other hand, if a blatantly erroneous rules application can be avoided, their instincts are to provide the officials the concise rules citation for the situation. I think most officials with an ounce of integrity would value the right info regardless of its source.

Great to hear about your son embarking on his officiating career. I get immense satisfaction partnering with my boys and watching from the stands while they manage a fast paced, pressure cooker game. I hope you are able to experience this unique pleasure soon and often.

I concur that judgement calls are off limits but many times an explanation given in response to a respectful question may provide for a teaching opportunity.

When my younger son was 10, he was called for a block. When he asked the ref what happened he was told he didn't give the dribbler a step and, even though he had good position that he was leaning backward and did not justify a charge.

My son's response was short and sweet 4---23---3

This official has since progressed to earn his Varsity stripes and we rehash that incident every time we meet. He refers to my son as his personal rules guru.

By the same token, my sons know the pat response to
If they are going to engage in a tete-a-tete with a game official, it would probably be more in the vein of "Can the screener have his legs spread tthhiiiisssss wide?" or "Can you follow the airborne shooter til he lands safely?"
It would seem these are more salient comments and may lead to a better called game.

I have said this before ... your sons are stuck the refs and their rules knowledge for the entire game. The rules knowledge of the refs will not improve during the game and may not improve before the next game. Understanding that fact will help them cope with any misapplication of any rule. If there is blatant misapplication of a rule, some refs might listen to a respectful question, but most I know will not. Your sons are going to have to read the personality of the refs on the game to know if they can be approached or not with a question.

Nobody likes a smart a$$. I would never encourage my child or congratulate her in a situation like this. I would ask her why she was engaging in a rules discussion during a game with an official. During a game, you aren't going to get the officials to change how they call a game or cause them to have a rules epiphany.

I work nothing but varsity ball these days and, to be honest, I can't remember who the captains are 5 minutes after the meeting. It's why I circle the captains' numbers in the book, just in case I need them later. In 20+ years, I've never gone back and looked for those numbers, but I have them, if needed.

I treat all players with the same respect they show me. They are welcome to talk to me anytime, but like I told the "captain" who wanted to whine about a block/charge and after I told him that we'll decide, not him, said, "but I'm a captain" -- being a captain doesn't give you a special right to whine and complain when you don't like a call.

I officiate and still play in leagues. The only things I would ever bring to an officials attention are fixable things. For instance, we had an official blow his whistle on a loose ball (inadvertant), then tried to pretend it didn't happen, then tried to give it to the team that was closer to the ball.

Also, they might do other procedures incorrectly, and I will ask about those things--and don't feel bad for doing so. The handbook says that coaches, players, and officials should all know the rules. Nothing wrong with pointing out a specific rule.

Now, I don't go overboard with it, and I certainly don't get into judgment calls. If he says it is off me and I didn't touch it--nothing I can do about it. (Although if he says it is off the other team and I touched it last, I can tell him that.)

Anyhow, it is knowing what things they can bring up and what they can't. Most players don't know the rules, even the most basic things, so it would be a shock to an official that a player actually knows the rules. It is all in what is brought up and how. Leave emotions out if you disagree.

I also still play in leagues as well. One big difference in the leagues I play in are that we don't have many "professional" referees. The leagues have players ref the games instead. It's not to save money, but really to have players learn how hard it is to ref so they will WHINE less. :)

Personally, I think it's funny that I'm considered the "professional" ref in the leagues I play in. I consider myself just your regular "average Joe" ref. However, I guess in sheer numbers of games worked, I am a professional ref. :D

Especially since they go to such great lengths....errr...they try so hard...i mean they cut no corners...hmmm...let's just say they are stiffly opposed to leaving no schmeckle unscarrred.