Throwing Clipboard
 

Do you automatically give a T for a coach throwing clipboard to the ground? Or is it case by case like if he's trying to show you up.

Does your opinion change if coach did it because he's mad at his players and not directed at you?

Coaches around here like to toss em'.

no. no. no.

No and no.

Peace

Hmmm, no body thinks that is unsportsmanlike conduct???

I do!!!

That is not what anyone said. ;)

Peace

When asked if any call is automatic, Rut's automatic answer is "no."

I agree with him, while I'm more likely to call it than not if I see it, I don't want to box myself in by saying it's automatic.

I would like to see the reasons behind the no's.:D

You got it.

Peace

Because there is no behavior or action that will "always" be a T.

Hmmm, interesting.....you might need to think that statement over...

Let me clarify. More general things, like "throwing a clipboard" require at least some judgment.

If you want to get specific, I'm sure you could come up with some that I would agree would be an automatic T. As in, "The coach throws a clipboard onto the court while screaming obscenities about the officials and their respective parents." I might be willing to call that automatic.

But they would be so specific as to be useless for the term "automatic."

No, maybe you need to think about that. Officiating involves a lot of grey and just because a clipboard hits the floor might not be because he/she slammed the board onto the floor. And I could use about a 100 other examples of how this or other things I would not consider to be "automatic" from my point of view. Now if you want to say "automatic" that is your right. But when you find a situation that goes against what you believe, let me know because there are a lot of things that may happen to you that will change your mind. For me I would be more concerned as to why a coach is slamming the clipboard, not just the fact the clipboard was slammed to the floor.

Peace

Yeah, I guess you are right about that and circumstances would only warrant a "T" if in the officials judgement it was an act of unsportslike conduct. But the statement "Because there is no behavior or action that will "always" be a T" would be an incorrect statement in my book and the rule book.

You are missing the point. Automatic means you do something without thought or judgment. Are there situations that would likely be a T? Of course there would be. But even things in the rulebook require some judgment and interpretation. I am just going to reserve some judgment and make sure I just observed what I actually observed and interpret why the action took place. Then I will make a decision. And the last time I read the rulebook, there are not many absolutes as to what is or is not a T. The rules tend to be left vague to allow for judgment to take over. For example, the rulebook says profanity is illegal. It does not specify which words are in that category.

Peace

Give me an example.

A coach screams "F**K!" from his bench. Come on your's & Rut's points are well taken that nothing is an automatic that you must always use judgement in every case, but can you think of a situation where you wouldn't tech that? I guess maybe if his response was to the gym being set on fire I might let it slide....

Yes I could. And yes I have not given a T when I heard something from the bench. And yes it depended on where I was officiating. I can tell you if I were to go into Chicago and gave a T for every bad word on first incident, the bench would be cleared and the two teams would be forfeited (and I am not talking about inner city schools, the Catholic schools are bigger culprits of the language issue).

Peace

I'm not saying someone just "said" "f**k", I'm talking screamed at the top of their lungs "F********K!!!!" (and stomped their feet for good measure:) ) I have never had it happen, but I would think I wouldn't think twice or consider where I was or why it happened...how about a coach grabs a player he is pissed off at for whatever reason, grabs him by the shirt and throws him over the bench Bobby Knight style...or while we are on the subject throws a chair across the floor?!?! Like I said your point is well taken, but there are certain cases where you are not going to have to use a whole lot of judgement b/c the action stands pretty well on its own don't you think?

If you have to embellish, then that should tell you why I do not like the "automatic" label. Because what you consider screaming at the top of their lungs is not what I would consider screaming at the top of their lungs.

In my experience many of my games I cannot hear what comes out of bench area during a timeout and I am not paying that close attention to every word a coach or someone says all the time. And I will honestly tell you if I am working in certain conferences I will do one thing and working in other conferences I will do something else. I will do that because the standards and the outrage are completely different. There are some areas around here if you say "Jesus Christ" then that would be offensive. Other places it would not be (even those religious and private schools as an example).

Once again, no one said that we would not give a T for a clipboard slamming. I think we were saying there would have to be some judgment and evaluation of the situation. It might likely end up that way, I just have a problem with the word "automatic" when these situations are often not so black and white.

Peace

I'm 99% sure I'd call this, but there is still the possibility I'd let it slide. Such as?
B1 slams into the coach full speed and the coach tears a ligament in his knee.
Or, his star player slips on the water spot in front of his bench from the last timeout, and coach hears the player's bone break. I might let this one go.

Ha ha touche!! Still not convincing me on the throwing the chair across the floor thing though, that has to be automatic. Unless maybe this - coach is arachnaphobic (has doctor's note to prove it) and an opposing fan puts a big tarantula on his seat when he gets up. He sees it just as he is sitting back down.

It actually brings up an interesting distinction though, I am a lot more willing to agree that no "language" infraction is automatic, but there are actions that are automatic in my opinion....flipping somebody off and I see it (what could his excuse possibly be?)....the whole throwing the chair thing....it is a lot harder to put a "spin" on an action...

Not to hijack this thread, but this makes me ask a similar question: If a coach picks up a chair and slams it straight down (not throwing it Bobby Knight style), automatic T? How about if he lifts his feet high enough and stomps down on it really hard?

Reason I ask is that Bob Erickson (now retired coach from Doane College in Nebraska) was famous for doing the aforementioned antics. Most of the officials that worked those games usually let it slide because he did it out of frustration at his own players and never because he didn't like a call by an official. However, there were a couple of officials who T'd him up the very first time he did it in their games, and a couple of others who would T him up if he did it while Doane was on defense. I'm just curious everyone's thoughts on this.

...unless a fan comes out of the stands with a knife and is about to attack an official. Coach throws chair to protect the official. :)

I did have a similar action happen last season. There was a player that dislocated his knee cap while driving to the basket all by himself. When it was obvious the player was hurt, he began using a couple of profanities. We held up the game for about 20 minutes to get this kid off the court. I passed on giving the kid a T. I think that was a good decision.

Peace

Absolutely...been there myself playing in a league on a court right next to a group of 9 year-olds practicing....not my proudest moment with some of the language that came out of my mouth, but sometimes you can't control such things...

Why...
 

Why does it have to be a black white thing Rut?

You would not understand. :D

Peace

From a Coach's Perspective
 

During my time coaching at the HS Frosh level, I always wondered why some officials seemed to be so concerned about what I was saying or doing to people other than them during a game, especially during a live ball. I was T'd once for saying "d*mmit" to a player on my bench, with my back turned away from the court, while the other team was in the process of making a lay-up.:confused:

I was T'd once for flipping my clipboard over my shoulder, with no verbal comment, where there wasn't even a remotely possible officiating-related reason for doing it, after my player did exactly the opposite of what he was instructed for the 63rd time that game. We had an empty bench area, and the clipboard landed in a pile of player bags never made a sound, but I got T'd, during a fast break by the opposition (boy was my counterpart ticked when they stopped that to T me, and then the kid missed his FT's! :p )

I've even saw during a JC game where I do PA announcing last year, a ref stop to badger a coach who dropped an F-bomb on his adult players, but only loud enough to be heard within 5 feet. The ref started an argument with the coach while the ball was in play, at a JC game! :eek:

It seems to me that at HS and above, unless it's blatantly unsportmanlike, or directly addressed at an official, or causes a safety hazard, there shouldn't be a lot of mind paid to things like flipped clipboards and the like. If a coach is making as *** of him/herself, let their Administrator deal with it, especially while the ball is in play. My .02.

Let me stop you right there. If you do not want to the official to say anything to you, do not say something that can be heard. Now that does not mean that some officials might not worry that much about what you say, but that does not give you the right to have anything come out of your mouth either. And that certainly applies to how you address officials and the antics you display. And yes, even with adult player that does not give you the right to say anything. It might mean you get more leeway, but it does not give you the right to say anything.

Peace

So in other words, if an official going down the court and happens to hear a coach say "d*mmit son, you have got to get around that screen" in a conversational tone, face-to-face with the player in a coaching moment, that's something worth stopping the game for? Isn't that a classic case of what you guys like to call "OOO?"

The particular situation I describe above was even more laughable considering that 2 games, 1 broken arm and a lot of pain killers later, the same official didn't even flinch when I dropped an F-bomb (the only time I ever did that in 8 years) on him loud enough for everyone to hear because I was extremely irritated he refused to grant the time-out I was requesting legally, while standing right next to him, having him make eye-contact with me twice, while signalling with a bright red cast on my arm. (Exact words, after player dribbles into opposite corner, picks up dribble, gets called for 5 second count, and then the official asks me if I wanted time and says, "I didn't see you asking for time," were, "How could you NOT. I HAVE THIS GIANT F'ING RED CAST ON MY ARM AND I WAS SIGNALLING [demonstrated signal again] IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE???" I turned around and sat down on my own expecting hear the whistle. Surprisingly, when I sat down, he was still looking at me with a deer/headlights look. His partner was laughing on the other side of the court, asked me if I still wanted timeout and then put the ball back in play.)

If you read this post and my comments, I did not say I would call anything in particular. I just said you are not able to say whatever you want to without consequence. And if you do not want to be penalized, then watch what you say. It is like rolling the dice. You might just crap out. All officials are not going to view similar language the same way in all situations. And if you do not like it, that is just too bad.

You do not have the right to say anything. And official's focus is on the court, not you as a coach. If you want a timeout, have your player’s call it and you will guarantee that you will get a timeout rather than asking an official to take their attention off the action.

Peace

I realized that and changed it to a generic response. You beat me to the reply. My apologies.

I'm not sure I agree with not having the right to talk to my players. I surely don't have the right to do ANYTHING I might please during the game, but there are some things that I don't think as a coach I should have to worry about during a game, and the situation I described about talking to my player is one of them. I agree 100% that the officials should focus on the court. That said, maybe coaches should not be allowed to request TO's?

Stop acting like a coach and listen. ;)

I did not say you could not talk to your players. But if you do not want to raise the attention of officials, then watch what you say. Talking to your players does not give you a pass to say and do anything.

If certain things come out of your mouth you might. I am not telling you what should happen. I am telling you what the reality of the situation is.

Well it was not officials that wanted this rule, it was coaches. That should tell you how I feel about that rule.

Peace

Not to butt in, but this is one particular rule that I don't like. Not because I have something against coaches being able to call a TO, but because I've had too many times (and another just tonight, that's why I'm writing this) where a coach is trying to get a timeout, but my focus is the other way, in a loud gym, and there's simply not a way to hear him/her.

The coach gets frustrated, I feel bad (not in any sense other than, 'oh, that would have really helped them right there'), and it's just not good for much. Especially when we go to the other end of the court and the other coach gets one right when he wants it.

Sorry, feeling soapbox-ish again tonight. :D

JRutledge
 

I hear ya. As a coach, I just felt compelled to get the last word in :D

I had a counterpart one game that had that happen to him twice. The third time, he walked over to the table, picked up the mic which was sitting there ready for the Varsity game afterwards, and said "Timeout please" over the PA. I laughed so hard I had to go out to the mens room while my player shot the 6 FT's for the 3 T's the coach and his assistant racked up.

Regarding coaches swearing at their players (not officials) in and around the bench area:

1. What counts as profanity varies in different parts of the country. To pick one example already mentioned in this thread: "dammit" or even "god dammit" are not widely regarded as obscene around here, but they are in many parts of the country.

2. I seem to recall that NFHS had a POE or interp on enforcing 10-4-1c even in the bench area (not addressed to officials).

Fighting? Profanity????

Let me explain something to you....coach are suppose to be the leaders of the team as well as showing an example for their kids. If a couch hollars and screams at the officials, disrespects the officials as well as curses on the court either at the officials or not, that kind of stuff pushes of on the kids and they will have similiar attitudes. I am sure most school have a standard of conduct code and I am sure that teachers in class would not curse or throw things around in the classroom....just my 2 cents.

Wow, this thread has me kind of shocked. I'm a new ref, however, I couldn't disagree more with anyone who thinks this doesn't deserve a T. Unless we're talking grown men here, basketball is played by kids. A lot of those kids don't have proper role models as it is. If you don't teach sportsmanlike conduct then how will the kids learn it? Therefore, when a coach is so angry over a GAME of basketball that he needs to throw objects, curse, or use any other unsportsmen like activity in front of a bunch of kids, it's definitely time for a T. And in our league, any coach that does this would be facing a dismissal hearing as a coach.

I'm going to make the assumption that you are refereeing in a recreational league with very young children, and you would be absolutely correct. There's no place for that type of behavior in that environment.

Chances are, I'm not going to T a HS or College coach for slamming a clipboard because he/she is angry at his players, which is the case in the OP. And in my opinion, if I was an assignor and I got complaints to the fact that my officials were T'ing up coaches for yelling or demonstrating their anger towards their players by slamming a clipboard, chances are I would only book you to games of low intensity, like a recreational or middle school game. We have to remember that coaching at a certain level is a job and a livelihood for most coaches. We shouldn't be telling them how to coach and motivate, just as much as they shouldn't be telling us how to referee. JMO.

I don't know about other states, but Colorado has explicitly followed the NFHS guideline, and isntructed the officials to call all profanity, even if directed at players. So yes, coaches do need to watch what they say to their players.

That said, at most, "dammit" might earn a quick chat depending on how loud it was uttered.

Do I think we have
Yeah, they missed that one. First of all, sounds like I would have let it go. However, if you'd been making a scene all game….

Also, there's a casebook play that states explicitly that the official should hold his whistle on this until after the layup; don't penalize the other team.

While we may or may not agree with you, the NFHS and at least my state don't. I may think I have better things to do than nag the players about tucking their shirts in, too, but the rules committee tells me otherwise. :)

Okay, you got me. If a punch is thrown, it's pretty much an automatic flagrant. We're talking about unsporting Ts here, though.not automatic.

Okay, let look at a few that are "automatic":

10-4-1
a,b, c, d, e, f, g, h. (G is fighting)

10-4-3

These are just a few that are "automatic".....

I've never believed in "making a scene" or excessively carrying on with an official during a game. The bottom line is it generally just makes a coach look bad and puts the kids on the team at a disadvantage when they start getting penalized for the coach's poor behavior. That being said, I think that what we'd probably all agree upon in these areas is that consistency within an area would be best.

You also have to remember that coaches are expected to display certain levels of restraint and sporting behavior. Different officials may interpret these levels differently(surprise). Iow, the coach is taking his chances if he wants to engage in any sideline histrionics.

So, basically we sureasheck <b>are</b> telling a coach how to coach. We are telling coaches that they must coach following the NFHS guidelines and rules for sideline deportment. Different officials may interpret these guidelines and rules differently. As long as each official is consistent in his interpretation and enforcement, the coaches and players will adjust. At least, if they're smart, they will.

And as for coaches telling us how to officiate, once again they can try.... and some of them sureasheck do try....but they're taking their chances if they do so.