Travel Question
 

A1 jumps into the air to try for goal. Seeing it may be blocked, A1 voluntarily drops the ball to the floor. A1 is the first to touch the ball after it hits the floor.

Travel? Yes or No?

Yes.

Agreed this is a violation, but does it matter whether or not A1 had ended a dribble before attempting the shot in terms of whether or not it is a travel or double dribble?

Assuming they had not yet dribbled and they jump and then decide to drop the ball, as soon as they recover it is a travel for starting the dribble w/ the pivot foot off the floor.

If they had dribbled, ended the dribble, gone up for a shot and then dropped the ball and recovered, do you then have a travel or is that a double dribble?

I have actually seen that called both ways, usually nobody cares because you have a whistle....but any officials watching should care...

Did his pivot foot leave the ground before he let go of the ball? yes? THen he can't dribble.

Right I agree with you, all I'm saying is that if he had already dribbled before he attempted the shot, then he "dropped", aka "pushed to the floor", aka "dribbled" the ball again, then you also have a double dribble (meaning he didn't fumble it which he could have recovered)....since you don't have the travel until he recovers the ball, don't you really have both a travel and double dribble at the same time?

Who cares?

Technically, it's a travel. The dribble may not even be started, let alone illegally, once the pivot foot is raised. The travel happens before he even touches the ball.

Not me, but someone who may be evaluating you may care....

But you aren't signalling the violation until he recovers/touches it are you? Honestly though, this is the line of reasoning that I would use as well - that he can't technically dribble, therefore it must be a travel....just playing devil's advocate since like I said I have seen it called both....

It's like the player who jumps to shoot, doesn't release the ball, and lands out of bounds.

Good call...so the player would be out of bounds and would have traveled...I guess as long as you get one of them you are good...

This is what I tried to say on another famous thread. But almost everybody else said that it was not a dribble unless he touches it again.

"It could have been a pass."

What if there was nobody there to receive this "pass" ??

I forget the answers to this, but there was not one that I found convincing.

So then you are calling a travel as soon as the ball is dropped to the floor? It is an interesting point since the definition of a dribble does not include the secondary "touching" of the ball, only the "pushing to the floor, etc, etc".....that being said, I don't recall ever having seen the call made until there is a secondary touch....I know I have never called it until the secondary touch. You always get the situation where they drop it and then attempt some half-a** "boxout" of the defender so a teammate can recover...I have called that foul before, but never a travel at that point....

What we argued about before was when a player made a head fake or whatever, then pushed the ball to the floor to start a move to the basket, then remembered that he had already used his dribble. The drop, to me, would be more difficult to make a blanket recommendation about without seeing it. Dropping the ball to the floor is not a normal way to start either a dribble or a pass. If there is a teammate nearby who has a chance to retrieve this "pass," I say let them have a chance to do so. If there is no such teammate with such a chance, I have no problem if the travel is called when the ball is released.

Slightly different
 

What if A1 leaves his feet and he loses the ball, B1 touches the ball and A1 catches the ball then lands with both feet? Would the answer be different if A1 was shooting the ball during this process? Thanks...

Day or night game?

I would say it depends on whether or not you judge that the player jumped in order to attempt a try or some other reason. If they jumped to attempt a try, then the try has begun. In that case you apply 4.44.3 Sit A which indicates that this is a travel...however, if this happened by halfcourt for instance, the player was jumping to attempt a pass, then I would not apply 4.44.3 Sit A because it specifically says A1 "jumps to try for goal"....in this case I would say the player can recover their own fumble, so you have no call...

If B1 touched the ball, then I'd make the play legal no matter why A jumped (try or pass).

4.44.3 Sit A (c)?

That's not the same as the play in question. In the play in question, A1 "loses the ball". In the case play, he didn't.

And, in 99.5% of the cases, if B touches the ball while A is holding it, and A continues to hold it, I'm judging the play to be a held ball (B prevented the release).

Agree with you on the held ball....BUT as far as A1 "losing the ball", you'd kind of have to judge when the try began. By definition, the routine motion immediately preceeding the try (or something to that effect) is part of the try. Therefore you could make a case that once A1 left his/her feet, this is part of that routine motion and the try had begun, therefore apply 4.43.3...whether he/she fumbles at this point is sort of consequential, they had attempted a try....this is why I said you'd have to judge if the player jumped to attempt a try or for some other reason...since they never actually released it prior to the fumble, it could be hard to tell...for that reason, to be honest I probably would not call a travel either, but it seems like you'd have a good argument by rule, no?

Incidentally I hate 4.43.3 Sit A(c)...how is it that A1 can shoot an airball and recover it without penalty, but in this situation A1 shoots, it gets blocked by B1, A1 catches it and returns to the floor, and you have a travel? Once it is blocked if it is coming back to you and you catch it, it is clear the try will be unsuccessful, therefore the try has ended, why can't you recover it? This is another one of those that I'm quite sure I have never called, it is always either a held ball, or the ball squirts away...what if A1 shoots, B1 blocks it, A1 returns to the floor, and then the ball lands in A1's hands?

That's actually 4.44.3 Sit A(c), but I agree - it's one that's never made sense to me, unless I'm reading it wrong. I see it as a try, and then recovering a ball that has no player control while airborne.

Thanks for that, you are right 4.44.3SitA(c)....

Well there is still player control until the player returns to the floor under the airborne shooter provision, but the try has ended once it is certain that it will be unsuccessful....I'd say that if it is flying back at A1 it is pretty certain that it will be unsuccessful....if the try has ended, why can't A1 recover it just like anyone else?

Gonna have to disagree here - we can still call a PC foul at that point, but:

4-12-6...Neither team control nor player control exist during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

So, back to my original argument and the outcome we're in agreement about, once the try is in flight and PC has ended it makes little sense to me why a player can't regain control of a ball batted back at him/her and land.

I'm sure there's reasoning I'm not seeing, but I'd love if someone could explain it.

You're misreading 4.44.3A(c). The ball never left A's hands in this play.

A jumps for a try. While A is holding the ball, B touches it, but so lightly that it doesn't affect A's ability to release the ball. A doesn't release the ball, but returns to the floor still holding the ball.

IF that's what you judge, then it's a travel.

I agree with that, but I will judge that the contact prevented the release in most situations.

You seem to think the play is: A jumps to try for goal and releases the ball. B bats the ball back to A who catches the ball and returns to the floor.

I agree that this is a legal play, but it's not the play that's in the case book.

No you are correct, I was reading something into your statement that wasn't there...completely irrelevant to this conversation...agreed, I would love to hear the rationale if someone has it...

Your conclusion is incorrect. The player CAN catch the ball and land....legally. As Bob replied to kbilla, you're both misreading the case...where the ball never left the shooter's hands.

Thanks, Bob, that's exactly how I was reading it. In re-reading it now I see that B1 touches the ball while A1 is still holding it - that's what all four pieces of the situation address.

Thanks for the clarification, and I agree that it's going to have to be a pretty clear situation for me not to call a held ball.

Yep, makes perfect sense now. Thanks.

Ahh I see now, that would make sense, not sure why but I didn't read it that way before. I guess it is because it doesn't specifically say that A1 didn't release the ball...but it doesn't say that A1 DID release the ball either...You are right, in that case I am usually going to have a held ball, although now that I think of the caseplay in these terms, I'm sure I have had a travel in this situation before also...usually at lower levels where the player is unsure of what to do once the play is defended and they just never let the ball go...usually a HS player is just going to drop the ball....then starts the "boxout dance"...:)