cursing on court
 

If you hear cursing on the court, is it an automatic T ?

It is for me if I know who is doing the cursing. If I hear it and don't know who said it I will warn both captains.

I try to get away from the usage of "automatic." That tends to put you into a box that is hard to get out of. My answer is no, I do not have automatic criteria for any T.

Peace

Amen! Well said, Rut.

Yep, it an automatic "t" unless I can not determine who said the curse word.

Approx. 3 seasons ago our Men's wreck league put in place a "Zero tolerence" policy on cursing. I'm so gald that they did cause I've had that policy in place for the 16 seasons I've been officiating the game. To me cursing so that another player, coach or fan hears what is said is unsportmanlike and deserving of a T.

A couple of things:

1) I hope they defined "cursing" because what I consider acceptable, you might not (and vice-versa). (If a player misses a lay-up and exclaims "damn" to himself, but another player happens to be standing nearby, is that a T?)

2) What's acceptable to me varies by level, volume, specific word and to whom it's directed. The higher we go, the more that's allowed. The louder it is, the more likely it's a T. The "F" word is more likely to get a T than the "D" word. And anything directed at the other team or an official likely earns a T.

3) Just because I might not issue a T in some set of circumstances, doesn't mean it's not addressed. THere's a whole reange of actions, from ignoring it, through talking to the player, to issuing a T, to ejecting. I've used all of the above.

Bob's opinion reflected my own.

This might not be the best way to handle the situation, but if I do hear profanity and I am certain who stated the profanity, during the next dead ball I go over and ask him not to speak in that way while on the court. This of course, is what I would do in reference to Bob's #1.

If the profanity is directed to the opposing team, that is taunting, which is unsportsmanlike, and will result in a T.

In our local kids rec league in grades 3-8, any profanity by a player or coach heard by the official is an automatic flagrant technical with ejection and one game suspension (all ejections in our league carry this suspension). If the offender is a coach, they must appeal to the Board to be reinstated after the suspension. We have had cases in which the profanity was at a very high level (i.e.: directed personally at an official) in which the coach was suspended for the season and had to appeal to come back the following year. As you can tell, there is an absolute zero tolerance policy at these grade levels.

At the HS level, it's an automatic T but not necessarily flagrant. All coaches at all levels must agree to and sign a sportsmanship/code of conduct pledge every year.

Any profanity by a spectator at any level results in an immediate ejection and suspension for the season.

We just don't like swearing, I guess.

A kid once fell to the floor in agony (he had torn his ACL) and yelled the F word four or five times. I gave him a technical because it is an automatic for me.

This might be one I let go. Not sure, though.

Had a Boys freshman coach last year ask me, in reference to a hot head on the other team, "Can he say 'Bull sh!t' like that?"

I didn't hear it, told the coach as much, and did not T the coach.

Even "automatics" have exceptions, I guess. ;)

Our rec league uses the same policy. A couple seasons ago I had a 6th grader argue a foul I called on him...He slammed the ball down, T'd him...when he realized I'd Td him up, he yelled "That's Bull S***!" really loud...Tossed him and he sat the next game as well....That was a playoff game and they lost.

A few years ago, I was doing an 8th grade girls game. The best player from the red team ( visitors ) as I called a foul, I heard " Bull Sh*t." , but I wasn't sure who said it. I went to the coach and said, " coach I think # 20 just cussed at me, you should do something about it" But I wasn't sure, so I let it go. 1 quarter later again after a foul ( not on her ) She yells, " that's Bull Sh*t" "Bang T" as I go to the table to report the foul, her mother and grandmother come out of the stands at me and telling me their daughter and grand daughter would never say such a thing, "Bang "T" my partner "T's" her up for the same thing. I hadn't even finished reporting my "T" with the problem with the parents...

But she would never do such a thing.

Years ago, I T'd a 6th grader for profanity. While I was reporting, his coach came over to the table and asked what was the reason for the T. I told him and he said, "Impossible. That's my son and he would never swear." I told him - well, yes he did and he restated that it would be "impossible". I told him to mark this day down in history because the impossible just happened.

He wasn't a happy camper but "quare si mihi cura est" (for those of you who don't speak Latin, loosely translated that means "ask me if I care" - it's my personal motto).

The above speaks volumes. Many of the coaches of teams I officiate know I am also a preacher. My definition of cursing includes "euphemisms" and they are just as offensive to me as the real words.

So you can see I am in a situation where if I T a player I run the risk of being accused of having rabbit ears, or just being too quick to T and not allow the player to let off some steam after making a mistake.

Over the years I have found the system that works best for me and the coaches. Like Rut said nothing is automatic. But using preventative officiating to let players know I heard their language coupled with communication with the coaches then the player can get the message from both me and his coach that such verbiage is unnacceptable and will result in the proper penalty if uttered again.

Daryl, I'm going to poke a little fun at your response to make a point. No personal affront to you or what I'm sure is your quality job of officiating.

So your stance is that unacceptable language will not be properly penalized the first time, but if uttered again a technical foul is automatic? :confused: :D


This leads me to ask a larger question. Why do people seem to believe that it is proper to fail to issue the proper penalties the first time that infractions of the rules are committed?

I was kidding by the way. Just trying to make a point about anything automatic.

Rule 10-3 7b
 

The rule reference in the title sums it all up. If they curse (profane or inappropiate language), its a technical foul. Regardless if they are cursing because they are mad at something they did or anyone else did....:D

So, "doggone it" deserves a penalty? What if the player is just mad at himself for making a bad play and mutters something like "darn"?

Again - not making fun, just curious as to the ramifications of having one official use a totally different set of criteria than the vast majority of officials.

I think that's why he issues a warning first. Some might call this warning a "come to Jesus meeting," but in context, I think I'll refrain from that. :)

Also, I doubt (in contrast to Nevada's post) he'd let things go that most call the first time around; such as dropping an F-bomb at an official.

Mark, the Preacher is saying that his definition of the word "curse" includes euphemisms. He's not saying he penalizes for all cursing. His last paragraph describes how he decides when to penalize.

Darn would not qualify as profane or inappropiate language.

So that just means that if a kid says "darn" twice, he gets a T. You know what, I don't happen to like the word "like", as in "He like, fouled me". I'm going to start issuing warnings for that type of usage and then technicals for the second time. I'm sure I can come up with a whole bunch of words I like, don't like.

BTW - the epitome of this usage was when I heard a teenage girl standing in line at the store say loudly to her friend, "I can't help it. I like, like him". YEESH!

Why not? As Pastor Long points out above, many consider the euphamisms (of which "darn" is a common one) to be just as bad. Most, like the preacher, recognize they are in the minority, however. And it also seems like the good preacher is cognizant of this in the games and takes the time to warn the transgressors of his heightened standard.

MARK!! Hello....!! He didn't say he was warning or penalizing words he didn't like. He said his definition of cursing and most other people's definition are different, and so he gives people notice that this game, things won't be the same as usual. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Yup. Daryl is no different than any other official. Every official applies their own personal standards anyway when it comes to just about all acts comprising unsporting technical fouls, including those for swearing. As long as the official is consistent and manages to keep any nonsense down to manageable levels, who cares?

I care. I care if I have a partner whose "standards" are so far afield from virtually everyone else it makes for an extremely confusing game for me and the players. How would you like it if you had a partner who called all contact as a foul? I can't imagine working with a partner who called every "euphemism" a technical if it is used twice.

I worked with a guy once who defined language worthy of a T as anything "you wouldn't say in front of your grandma". That's a pretty good yardstick, actually. ;)

Wouldn't work for me, though. You never met my grandma. :D

I guess it depends a little on what he's calling a euphemism. If he's really warning for darn and doggone it, well, yea, that could be problematic. But perhaps he means more like (:D ) friggin' or freakin'. I could see warning or whacking about those, especially if other parts of the situation would be borderline such as yelling in someone's face, or yelling at a ref. But then it could be "marshmallow" and it would still be a T.

It's an interesting position for him to take. I'd like to hear more about how it's actually worked out in a real game sitch.

I think the purpose of this rule was to be vague in the first place. What is offensive to one person is not offensive to another. What would be considered out of line in one place would be common in another. I may personally disagree with Darryl's position, but if that works for him I cannot see this as any different when people say "I will give an automatic T if I hear......" And if that was his explanation for giving a T, I know in many places he would be the only person making that call. Being the only official that does just about anything is not a good thing most of the time. This is not a good way to stand out when working games.

Peace

You're right, Jeff. But from what I've heard, Daryl has been making it work for him for a long long time. That's why I'm asking about specifics of his stand and how it works in a real game. I'd like to hear what words he refers to as euphemisms, what coaches say to him, whether players do actually see the boundaries and play within them, etc.

NevadaRef:

Daryl just called me. He wanted you to know that was typing out a response to your post above, when he lost his internet service. As soon as it is up and running he will respond. He has scrimmages both in the morning and the afternoon tomorrow. Better him than me. I am attend our sons' swim meet this weekend. Go Buckeyes.

MTD, Sr.

Take in point my T on the coach who used the term "rape" in a 3rd grade girls game a couple weeks ago to decribe the contact on a no call my partner and I had.....He got tossed and that was not cussing...

I really think it depends on the level and the sitch....I don't have as much issues with a "Damn" from a HS kid to himself after he miss a shot...but yelling DAMN! if they feel they got fouled is another thing...I'm one to try to use some preventative maintenance and talk to a player or coach if I hear it...but again, you gotta see the situation and how it's used before you say it's automatic....

Great, I'll look forward to it. He always has worthwhile officiating comments. It's his partner's thoughts of which we have to be suspicious. :)

My pet peeve is the yell "AND ONE" from another player or the bench when a kid is driving and gets barely touched. I worked with a guy who used to call T's in wreck games for it. He said it was the same as them yelling that he missed a call. He usually would give one warning, though.

Juulie and the rest of the Portland gang, it was the late Jeff Strother. I worked wreck games with him at The Hoop.

Just because Jeff could get away with it doesn't mean anyone else in the world could. He was in a category by himself. Don't even get me started telling Jeff Strothers stories.

Well then how about starting with a few stories about Sally to warm you up? :D

Well, Sally Struthers is actually from Portland, but our ref friend spelled his name differently.

Finally, internet service has been restored. I will try to be brief and clear up misconceptions. My original words were in agreement with Bob Jenkins post and that is why I quoted him.

Euphemisms: I only used this example because "cursing" is not defined in rules. Obviosly my definition is more strict than many others on this board. There are words I do not wish to hear whether on the court or anywhere for that matter. But the only way I can make this known is to let people know it offends me. Most are polite enough and refrain from using language that might offend me.

But I am not so pious that I use my own definition of cursing to determine when I will administer the T. On the court if I hear a euphemism I do not address it at all...in one ear and out the other. I have other things more important to worry about. If the "real curse" is used (yes, even the F word)in a situation that it was so softly muttered that only I heard it and it was not addressed to another player then I can indiscreetly let the player know I heard his language and to clean it up. No penalty yet as how can I prove he said it?

This now begs the question of how to handle more vocal curses. My only options are to warn before giving T or give T with no warning. There is no doubt we hear things on the court that players say out loud that fans, coaches, etc may not hear. In those cases I can warn and again indiscreetly let coach know to prevent the language from escalating to another level.

But Nevadaref brought up a good point. He poked fun at my system as it did give the impression that in ALL circustances I give a warning first before administering a T. I think he knew already I would give a T for cursing with no warning but he wanted to give me the opportunity to say it.

There are times when warnings are not appropriate and the cursing must be T'd immediately when heard. I do not hesitate to do so when warranted. And those times I have done so I have rarely had to explain to the coach what the player said because it was already plainly evident. There have been times when the coach was already sending in the substitute.

Again just to specifiacally make a point. None of the words you use above neither deserve a penalty nor do I even address those words when I hear them on the court. In one ear and out the other.

While MY definition of cursing or profanity may be more strict that anyone else on this board it is NOT THE CRITERIA I use to determine when to penalize. To do so would be a travesty to the game and seems to make it think the game is about ME. It is not.

The criteria I use is that which not only I believe the rules committee intended when writing the rule but close to what many on this board think is intended. Based more on accepted criteria from my peers rather than my own personal beliefs.

From what I have read in this thread is that many of us seem to understand the spirit and intent of the profanity rule and are in agreement on what and when to penalize. It looks like we are rather consistent in that respect whether in Nevada, Oregon, Ohio, Canada, or wherever.

Proof? We don't need no stinking proof! When you function as judge, jury, and executioner, lack of proof is not a problem.

Seriously, this is obviously a matter that you do not take lightly, and I would think that those you work for/with would know this to be the case. Having said this, I would also think that you would not be inclined to take action unless you were quite certain of what the player said. Having said all this, if you feel a warning is the appropriate action, by all means do so. But, in the case of a player letting lose a stream of language which you might find totally unacceptable, even if nobody else heard it besides you, in the first place who would ask you for proof, and in the second place, cuz I said so is all the proof you would ever need in this situation.

Yep, Daryl, that's what I thought that you would say. Thanks for clarifying. :)

Now to poke a little more fun at you, I'm interested in your mechanic for "indiscreetly" warning someone. Do you stand in the center circle and loudly chastise the person or do you have it announced over the PA system? :D

Isn't this one of the reasons why we carry a bullhorn on our belt?

I mean, that's what I've always done in Kansas, but now I'm in South Carolina with my first game today - hopefully they do it the same here.

Had a boy in my 14U final yesterday say "bull****" after a shooting foul called by my partner.. he was walking to get set up for the FTs when he said it and didn't address it directly to us.....there were two defensive players there and it was a pick-em....

His coach had called him over to the sideline to talk to him so I walked over and talked to him in front of the coach. I simply said "#55...I just want you to know that I heard what you said after the whistle....I know you were frustrated on that foul call but I would rather you not use profanity out here today...as you move up, you could get a T for that so keep that in mind Ok?"....He apologized to me and said it wouldn't happen again and we had no further incidents...

For me not an automatic Tee. It depends upon the following:

1. Age of players.
2. Was it directed at myself, my partner,or a player on the other team.
3. Who heard it? Myself and/or players on the court?
4. Did both benches hear it and the parents?

I can't tell you when I'll do it. But I know when to do it. Just depends on the circumstances.

Argh.

I apologize for uttering profanity by using the word indiscreetly. Kudos to Nevada and jdw for immediately assessing the T. Looks like I would have only got a warning from Coltdoggs.

Hopefully no one needs an explanation of this post and how it applies to this thread but I will if asked.

Hint: Snaqwells just issued a T to gordon30307 and I agree with it. Anybody else want to say argh too?

It became official last week.

The english language has officially reached 1 million words.

No reason to curse or use profanity or other indiscretions with so many alternatives at our discretion.

... disposal? convenience? fingertips?

...so many choices at hand? ....so many options?

I see your point...

If its language I wouldn't want my kids to hear, then thats my yardstick. But profainity is in the ears of the beholder.:eek:

Saturday in a Girls Varsity game, I wacked a player whose response to a foul call was a very angry and loud "I didn't touch her!" Earlier in the same game another girl muttered sh!t under her breath when she didn't get a foul call and turned the ball over. I asked her if I heard her right, and when she admitted it, I told her to watch the language. So while profanity is a no-no, sometimes the manner of the player is more important than the words.

No. <font></font>

That is simply not true. Since you're a preacher, I'll use this example.

A pastor was delivering his sermon one Sunday. He was stressing the fact "loving your neighbor" means loving everyone, not just those people who live conveniently nearby. He spoke of the plight of Ethiopians affected by devastating drought.

"Hundreds of thousands of people have starved to death in that country. But here in this country, most people just don't give a damn about that."

He paused.

"And the really sad fact is that most of you are more concerned that your pastor just said 'damn' than you are about 200,000 starving brothers and sisters."

A silly little parable, but it illustrates that profanity sometimes has a purpose that normal discourse can't provide. In this case, it was intended to jar the audience into a perspective that the facts and figures alone didn't illuminate.

I'm not saying that profanity is always a good thing, or that it should never be punished on the basketball court. I'm simply trying to illustrate that it's not really true to say that there's "no reason" for profanity. There are lots of reasons. They may just not be valid on the basketball court.

Snaqs...reminds me of the old one liner a Coach used in addressing an official.

Coach: "Hey Mr. Official...I'm not saying you are full of sh!t...but, can I THINK you are full of sh!t?" ;)

Official: "Thank-you."

Now, see, RD, you didn't read that thread carefully. I told you I never say "Thank you" in response to a question. THAT would be confusing, eh, bz?

Sometimes? Almost always in my games.

Example:

A couple years ago, I had a H.S. Varsity player throw his hands up in the air and say something to me as I was going to the table to report a foul on him.

I simply put the whistle back in my mouth and whacked him.

The Coach motioned me over as the FT's were being shot. He asked me what the player said. I stated, "I don't know." He kind of just looked at me....and then I went on to say, "It isn't WHAT he said, it's HOW he said it."

I penalize for unsportsmanlike BEHAVIOR...the language is something else.

BTW...If a Coach asks what a player said when he/she has just been T'd for cursing....don't let the Coach get you to say the actual curse words...just tell the Coach "profanity, Coach."
You don't have to repeat the bad language.

"Coach, he said that word that starts with F and ends with *** (you say the letters) and it wasn't FIRETRUCK."

LOL...yea...I stole that line from you a few years back.

I actually used that once in a Varsity game when my partner had T'd up a player for saying the F word.

The coach asked me what he said, I was feeling frisky that night so I told the Coach just what you stated...except I just said, "The word started with an F and ends with a K...and it isn't FIRETRUCK."

The Coach didn't think it was too funny...but, he didn't argue the call.

I tell them. I do not want them to assume the context. I will repeat the entire phrase and think nothing of it. Just like I would do if I had to fill out and ejection report. I want the coaches and everyone to know what was said so they cannot claim I heard something else. It is not always the words themselves that are bad; it is the way the words were used that adds to the context of the actions.

Peace

If that works for you...great. I could really care less what they "assume". If I'm managing the game...then my definition of profanity is profanity...it is what it is.

Agree, now we are in different territory IMO...my report is specific.

Again, I don't care if the coaches know the specific words...if they can't trust that I know what profanity is...then they shouldn't have me there.

Is there an echo in here...;)

It's my turn to channel Jeff (someone get Juulie a cold rag before she passes out...) so I agree.

Coach asks what his player said to merit a T and I'll tell him. I might even embellish it a bit to make the story more exciting.... :eek:

Thank-you.

Since when is "fork" cursing?:p

If I give a T to a kid for profanity or any comment, I tell the coach EXACTLY what the kid said. Last season in a playoff game I heard, loudly the comment, "I'm going to kick your *** after the game." from a student section. Next dead ball I went to the AD and told him exactly what I heard from the section. After the game, the AD contacted the head of officials for the state and was complaining about things (as I understand it his son was the HC and left the gym after 2 T's from 1 of my partners). He took exception to my use of profanity. The head of the state simply said that I didn't use profanity, I just told him exactly what I heard. I see no reason to mince words is such situations. Tell it like it is.

You're saying the wrong letters. :rolleyes:

Had a game last year - partner calls a foul. As I am getting things organized in lane I see and hear the player staring at my partner - call him a sh_ _ head in German. :eek: I smiled at her and whack - she had just earned her 5th foul. She looked surprised until I asked her if she spoke German in German. :D Coach asked what the T was for and I told him it was because I knew a little German. Must not have been the first time she used the language cause he just nodded put in a sub and sat down.

Ya' know, I can swear in Hebrew, Yiddish and Pig Latin. Never thought to do it during a game, though. However, I did do it a few times in HS P.E. :D

BTW - my wife swears in Swedish all the time. Go figure.

Had a similar situation in a HS soccer game a few years back. I asked the player auf Deutsch if he thought that his language deserved a yellow or a red card. He apologized, asked for a caution, we shared a smile and moved on. I never had an issue with that player again for the rest of his HS career.