My wife ( who reffed for 15 years to the University Level) and I had a duscussion to-nite. We wondered when officiating a game ,and watching your own area( not following the ball) how much you think you actually saw(%) and how many (%) of fouls & violations you actually called. We would be very interested on the views of this forum.
Pistol
a.What you saw -%
b. What you called- %

I'll take a shot...:)

a. 80%
b. 80%

I am surprised at how many are viewing this post but not responding. Have I hit a sore point???
Pistol

Not really.
 

No, not really measurable. Who actually knows what they see and what they call unless all their games are on video tape. How the hell can anyone answer that and not be quessing totally.

Just a thought.

Peace

I suggest you take a guess Rut -you are usually good at that!

Well, if I am good at guessing, you are good at making things up that have nothing to do with anything. This is really silly to guess about a thing that has no real basis for any useful discussion. That is why you do not have anyone responding. This is like saying who is a better player, Jason Williams or Jason Kidd. It really does not matter in the end.

OK you asked for it.

100% on both.

Happy now?

Peace

Yes

I'm not even sure of the question.

I think it's: "Suppose we could accurately measure all the fouls / violations. How many of those do you see (in your area)? Of those that you see, how many do you call?"

If that's the question, I think I see 95% of the violations and 90% of the fouls (but on some of those, I'm not sure it really is a foul). In two-person, it's a little less.

Of those, I call 100% of the violations and 95% of the fouls. The other 5% I might turn into a violation (e.g., A1 gets a rebounds. B1 "reaches in" and the ball goes OOB. If I'm not sure it was a foul, I go with the OOB call).

Those percentages might go down during a one-sided game (e.g., earlier this year I had a girl who looked as if it was her first game. She received the ball on a pass and got that "deer in the headlights" look. She shuffled both feet (several times), but didn't change her position on the court. I passed on the travel call.)

Related questions: How much of what you "see" didn't really happen? How much that you didn't see do you call (e.g., L, looking off ball in the post. All of a sudden, two players are on the ground near the three-point line. Do you make a call?)

That's a good question but I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer it. I KNOW that I've missed some calls that I've seen, and I HATE it when that happens. I usually go home and run the mental video tape of missed calls through my head for about 12 to 24 hours and try to make sure it never happens again.

I am very interested in your responses. I am sorry if the question was unclear.All I really was interested in was honest opinions on :

A. What percentage of what you should be looking at in a given situation do you think you actually see;and

B. What percentage of fouls and violations that you actually see do you call?

Myself , I 'm with the first responder 80/80
As I watch people a lot I find that a lot of officials only see about 50% of what they should be seeing due to poor movement and positioning . Also, I see some officials that call 100% of what they see which indicates to me they don't have real good judgement on what to let go. Those that call a very low percentage of what they see also lack judgement. Those that call things that they don't see clearly are Guessers and always rate LOW.. This all is readily evident to evaluators.

I'd say I see about 75-80% of plays well enough to clearly know what foul/violation (if any) should be called.

For things which are clearly violations or fouls, I try to call 100% of them, but I'm probably at about 95% (Hey, we all miss some!).

On things that might be violations, I try not to call them. For "kinda-sorta" fouls, it really varies depending on the game and what kind of mood I'm in that night (:D) - I probably call half of those (which half depends on which team bribed me better before the game!!)

This is a tough one to answer. To me it depends on the level of play. Believe it or not it also depends on whether it's girls or boys ball. I have a hard time seeing everything in a crowd when the players are shorter(girls) than me for some reason. It's not so much of a problem when the players are the same height or slightly taller. If I were to give you an average, I would guess maybe 75 and 70 but this is pure speculation. I think I would have to watch a lot of game tapes to give a more accurate answer.

According to whose judgement? Yours? Do you think that's an objective, scientific method to grade others? Certainly, I don't agree. If you want my numbers, here they are.

I see 100% of what I should see and I call 100% of what I see.

That's according to my judgement, which certainly is an good as anyone else's.

This makes no sense whatsoever. If whatever they see is included in the amount of fouls and violations that make up the 100%, then that's what they should call. If it's something that you should "let go", then it wasn't enough contact for a foul in the first place, or the violation really didn't take place, so those actions shouldn't be included in the content of the list.

Peter, this post probably came out sounding a lot harsher than I meant it, and I apologize for that, but I have to tell you I agree with those that think this is just an exercise in futility.

I hope they don't think the same about my post regarding technical foul counts. :)

Mark,
You must be the first perfect official I have ever corresponded with. You actually see everything ,don't miss anything and call everything correctly-Halleluyah!!! We will all bow to you!!


No seriously there is no correct answer to this question but it does generate self criticism and that is good. The point of it all is to think about your movement and positioning and having good judgement on what should be called and what you pass on.
Statistically even the greatest officials miss things because of less than ideal positioning. They also pass on 10-15% of the violations and fouls that they see and they do it because they have great judgement. This was passed on to me over the years at many clinics/camps I attended,mostly in the USA.

I think the point has been made and we can all think about it from here on in even those who chose not to comment.
Thanks for the feed-back it was what I expected.
YIBB
Pistol

All you proved was that this post had no real point at all. Because in the end, who cares what we think we call or think we miss. It is only going to matter to those that can watch the tape of a game and even then, it is only going to give you part of the story.

Peace

Silly question..still not sure I understand it.

If I do understand it, the answer would be that it depends on the level and the game.

I call every foul that I see. Sure, I let some contact go but that's because I didn't think it warranted a foul.

Not sure what you were trying to find out or generate, but whatever.

Z

peter,
i do not know about the percentages, but when i break down tape my average is about 5 missed plays per game. this includes violations, fouls, and no calls. the best tape i have seen of my self was 3 missed plays, and the worst is, well not very good. though i think percentages has too many variables unless you just count missed calls when you have a whistle on a play.

(Ed Rush did a statistical on the percentages of the nba refs and on plays that they had a whistle they were correct 94.2% of the time, this did not include the plays where they did not have a whistle)

you have touched on a subject that many people feel vulnerable to speculation. because many refs have never watched a game tape of themselves, many refs only watch a few. in my opinion not enough tape is watched by officials. (nc2a and highschool)

Sorry Rut,
You may not care, but many do and that is how they try to improve their position to see what they are supposed to be seeing and also improve their judgement.
BTW I did not dream this discussion up . I participated in it many times when it was led by very respected American and Canadian clinicians who thought it very important. They are the ones who thought the numbers for great officials should be somewhere between 80-90% for Seeing and the same for Calling. They realized with 2 man mechanics that's all you could expect to see most of the time and as far as judgement is concerned the 80-90% applies regardless of whether it was 2 or 3 man. Some of the people I learned this from were:
1 Dr Phil Fox -D1- IAABO clinitian;
2 Norman Van Arsdalen-D1- IAABO clinitian;
3 Fred Horgan- International FIBA clinitian; and
4 Jake O'Donnel-NBA - clinitian
I must admit I have not heard this topic discussed during clinics attended over the past few years but that is probably because at those clinics that I attended the clinitians were not directing their content towards the higher level of official. They have kept it quite basic so as not to get the more inexperienced people confused.


For those that are aspiring to the top levels I hope you found the discussion helpful if a bit philosophical. It is designed to make you think and self evaluate.
Pistol