Beckoning in Subs
 

Going long, C opposite table brings them in. In all other sitches, does closest table side have that honor?

whomever

Agreed, as long as you agree in pre-game. This is not a major deal in my game.

And starting this year the NFHS mechanic is to sound the whistle for all incoming subs.

Was taht noted as a change? I hadn't realized or recognized it...but it's been common use everywhere I've officiated before this year, anyway.

Nope, just appeared in the new manual without comment.

Shocking :rolleyes:

Yeah, there was a lot of that this year.

I disagree with above who say "whoever." It is Cs job to bring in subs when spread full court.

The way I look at it is that it is C's responsibility, but I've got no problem if one of the other officials sees it first, blows the whistle and beckons...

What if the table is down at one end due to space requirements in the gym? :D

My area usually goes with the closest official takes care of the subs, but following a made FT the T brings them in and then passes the responsibility off to the C.

For the record Illinois does not use the NF Mechanics book anymore.

The official closest to the table initially brings in the subs and the C makes sure anyone after the first wave is taken care of.

And no you do not have to blow your whistle to bring in a sub. That is optional at best and unnecessary most of the time.

Peace

The two statements in pink are obviously linked. Rut sometimes fails to note stuff like that when he pontificates. ;)

For any locale or state that DOES use NFHS mechanics, one DOES blow the whistle when bringing in subs. The new NFHS manual says so on pages 40 and 77.
2.4.5 F and 3.4.5 G
1. Ensure that it is appropriate to beckon substitutes ...
2. Sound his/her whistle, raise an open hand.
3. Motion for the substitutes to enter the court.
4. Keep the other hand raised (stop-clock signal) until the substitution(s) is completed and play may begin.

Also these two sections cover the mechanics of which official brings in the subs.
For two-man it is "the official near the table, typically the Trail," (2.4.5B) while in 3-man the book says, "Generally, the Trail will acknowledge and beckon substitutes onto the court, except when the Trail is administering a throw-in. In that case, the Center will beckon the substitutes.
... In such case, when in-bounding the ball in the back court, the Center will beckon substitutes (if the table side Trail beckons the substitutes as he/she transitions to new Lead, he/she should hand off the administration to the Center)." (3.4.5b&C)

Let me break it down for you.
 

How can I put this clearer?

The IHSA is no longer mailing out the NF Manuals to officials anymore. The reason this is the case is because the IHSA feels that many of the NF Mechanics are out dated and sometimes flat our wrong. And in several sports the IHSA uses very few NF Mechanic procedures. And if you do not believe that, ask any IHSA Basketball official why they have not received a NF Official's Manual this year? It is not because the IHSA forgot. The IHSA does not want to use them anymore. Just like the IHSA choose not to use the NF's On-line class for "certification" which was encouraged by the NF and Mary Struckoff who once worked for the IHSA before she took her post.

The IHSA has taken more steps to be apart of the Officials Education Consortium which is a group of states that are sharing video clips and other education material than using material outside of the NF.

I have direct knowledge of this because I speaking as a member of the IHSA Conference Committee which is headed by Dave Gannaway, Assistant Executive Director of the IHSA and runs the IHSA Official's Department (also sat on the NF Football Committee until this year). On that committee I was asked to run (with my football crew member) the IHSA New Official's Session at the Official's Convention that takes place in July every year. How does that relate to this topic? It relates because basketball in Illinois has their own mechanics and philosophies which many are explained in a PowerPoint Presentation (that I have referenced several times here) on the IHSA website. I have also been selected to be an IHSA Clinician in basketball this past summer and I tend to follow these issues very closely. As an IHSA Clinician, it is not necessary to blow the whistle in Illinois despite what the NF Book says because we do not use it anyway. It is not something that is forbidden to do, but it is not required (or else).

Unless something changes drastically in the next few years, we will not be using the NF Official’s Manuals anytime soon. This is a much bigger issue in my other sports like football and baseball where the NF Mechanics and the IHSA Mechanics are very different. Basketball is more in line with the NF as in similarities, but there are differences and things we are asked to do that do not apply at all with the NF. For example, bouncing the ball to the thrower on the end line as the Lead or New Trail is not allowed in Illinois. This is a big no-no in this state and is taught as something that you cannot do. The NF allows the option and the IHSA says you do it this way or else. It is required to teach the IHSA PowerPoint Mechanics at IHSA Clinics and not material directly from the NF literature.

And if I do recall, the OPer is from Illinois. If he wants to stay in the good graces of the higher ups, he likely will have to do what is accepted from the IHSA.

Anything else you think you know better than I do about this topic?

Peace

Yep, he said from the Chicago area, but do you know where jdw hails from? How about snakeeyes or snaqwells? This forum is not just for people from IL. :eek:

Yeah, how about these points: I know how it works in my state, I know what it says in the NFHS manual, I know that jdw is from South Carolina, Snaqwells is in CO, and that I don't give a %)^@# what you do in Illinois.

WE ARE ALL AWARE that IL dropped the NFHS mechanics manual because you've written that numerous times. We don't care and are sick and tired of you saying that over and over. If you want to talk about what happens in one certain state do that in a single thread, and leave the rest of the board to those of us in the other 49 states plus DC.

Now what the (&*^$@ can't you understand about this sentence? I VERY CLEARLY put it right there in my prior post for all to see.

Perhaps you just can't read. :p

"We"?:confused:

Popcorn. :D

Let's take a vote: who likes to read the same stuff from Rut over and over again? :p

In my mind, there is value in replies (like Ruts) to situations like the OPs where his state is seemingly more restrictive about mechanics.

There is also more value in other information, such as that published by the Fed, if only for the reason that there are likely more non-IL readers than there are IL readers.

I appreciate when NevadaRef and Rut each qualify their responses with why they're responding as they do (except for learning about Dave Gannaway).

I do agree with NV that Rut's pink statements are linked, and that Rut's commentary (2nd sentence) could be construed as his opinion rather than IHSA policy. IMHO, he didn't adequately clarify that this mechanic is part of the IHSA mechanic.

For me, that can lead to confusion. Not much of a pregame led to this. On several occasions both myself and partner are bringing in subs, just looked sloppy to me and could lead to putting ball in play as one official is giving it up to partner and administering official may see that arm drop and think it's OK to put ball in play.

There are practices in place to avoid this; such as ensuring you make eye contact. If I'm administering and see subs coming in, I watch the subs and my partner. I'll do my own count, and then look at my partner to make sure he/she's ready.

It can only lead to problems if there are other sloppy aspects of the mechanics.

Yep.

Oh? "We" is all of the officials on this forum?

You and Nevada speak for all of us?

Interesting.

Oddly enough, we, being plural, indicates two or more. If you wish to interpret it as being "all of the officials on this forum" you can certainly do that. If you wish to opt out, there's an 800 number you can call to get on a list... :p

I heard there's a waiting list.

Yeah, but if you're "somebody" you can usually get right in ;)

Oddly enough, that's a big, steaming pile of crap. :)

The gentleman from Nevada stated in the paragraph where he used the word "we" that Rut should ---<i>".....leave the rest of the board to <b>those of us in the other 49 states plus DC</b>."</i>

Soooooo, when did Nevada and <b>you</b> get elected as spokesman for "those of us in the other 49 states and DC"? I musta missed getting the memo on that.

Can I flash my "I'm a basketball official" card?

What? You didn't get a ballot? :D

I don't see why not. I do it all the time.

Chuck suggested we not give JR a ballot; it might confuse him. We were afraid he'd end up voting for Pat Buchanon.

It seemed like the prudent course of action at the time.

I don't know why JR's panties are in such a twist. According to his posted location, he isn't in one of those other 49 states or DC. :D

Last I checked, Nebraska was one of the 49 other states.

To educate us Canadians, are you saying that Nebraska is Hell?

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My brother is currently in Omaha attending Creighton. From what he tells me, Nebraska is definitely not Hell. He says it's way colder than Hell in Nebraska ;)

Some might say that.
Some consider it purgatory because if you stay on the straight and narrow (I-80), it is possible to leave.

Like I said, Nebraska is one of the 50 states. Just because JR is misspelling it....

Okay, so it's hell without central heating.

I bug my friend whenever we go out for eats after football games because he always orders meat (never veggies) and his response is always "Why do I need to eat vegetables when I can get other animals to eat them for me?" :D

LOL!!

I disagree with that statement, and since I'm just reading this thread for the first time and it is three pages long, I am assuming I'm not the only one that will disagree with it. BLowing the whistle to bring ALL subs in will definitely keep you and your crew out of trouble with to many on the floor or having subs coming in without being beckoned. They can assume a wave in to bring them in, but they can't assume a whistle to bring them in. JMO

I apologize, when I saw 3 pages of posts, I simply assumed we were talking about officiating.... :D

This is a regional thing. Do what's done in your particular area. As Rut mentioned in another thread, it's not always good to stand out in certain aspects. I suspect this is one of those times.

If you are king of your area, you may disregard my suggestion.

And we all know what happens when you assume. :D

270 posts and a year on this forum, and you haven't figured this out yet? A few threads stick to the subject after the first page or two, but most are 75% or less ref-related. Some down to 2 or 3%. Something about male-bonding or something, I don't exactly understand it...

7 years and more than 8400 posts, and you don't understand it yet?

Dan, can you 'splain this to her?

You really need to read the entire thread next time.
 

If you actually read what I said, I was not talking about the NF or what is required to do across the country. I was talking about what is allowed or not allowed in my state. And for the record I the person that made the OP is lives in my state. I was referencing our policy or lack there of as it relates to this issue of blowing the whistle for every substitution. It is not required to blow the whistle for substitutions and it is also not forbidden to blow the whistle. It is something that is recommended if you have to get your partner's attention, but no one is going to write you up if you choose not to and you accomplish the very same thing without the whistle.

Also for the record I blow the whistle often on many substitutions and in the camps I have attended no one has ever come out and said this was a requirement. This is one of the many cosmetic mechanics that is suggested and based on who you are working for or who observes you they might feel it is important or not. Truth be told I do not care either way what you do. I do not think it is a good or bad mechanic. I do blow the whistle sometimes because it works for me and other times I might not blow the whistle because I have attentive partners or not a very loud gym. Sometimes I just use my voice and that is all I need to do.

Peace

My philosophy also............. I whistle only if I feel I need too.

Stunning post, yet irrelevant to me. Come to the Rockford area on December 11th and you'll see us bouncing the ball on the endline. Of course, we hold only reciprocal licenses and come down there just to work some games, not to stay in anyone's good graces. Maybe more people should care more about officiating and less about these trivial things.

Oh, my partners and I have been whistling in the subs for years. It's an audible acknowledgement that we got the sub(s) and our partners and everyone else can hear those. When I work with people who don't whistle in the subs, I hate it.

The reason for the mechanic I stated on the end line is because officials were getting in a bad habit of bouncing the ball and going up the court too soon. Or they were bouncing the ball to the other side of the lane just to save a step but putting themselves out of position from the beginning. If you choose not to do that, that is up to you. But for those that live in this state, that can mean other things they would like to do will not happen. It is not a mechanic that is going to get them fired from a league, but it might hold them back in the post season and after all that is what a lot of officials want to do at some point in their career. And the reason I currently do not go to other states to work games is because I do not want to do things that I do not agree with or use mechanics that I am not normally required to use.

I have worked with many people that do not blow the whistle. It does not bother me one way or the other. I usually take my time to make sure subs are coming in anyway. I do not need a whistle to help me do that. Having said all of that, if people use the whistle it is another non verbal way to get someone's attention. Honestly I try to only use the whistle if I feel my signals will not be acknowledge. For example if I call a foul and report and I stay tableside, I will not likely blow the whistle because I am already at the table. I also find that the main times I do blow the whistle are when a sub is still coming to the table and I know we are close to putting in the ball. Then again if my partners see me clearly with my hand up, I do not blow the whistle. It is not an every time thing for me and I am fine with that.

Peace

In light of some recent events, I feel I should say a few things.
 

Honestly, I do not care where these other people live. The person asking the question was asking what to do and why, not asking about a specific body or organization.

He did not ask about the NF. This is not a NF Forum. Maybe that is the reason why people talk NCAA, FIBA, wreak leagues, camps, philosophies and any other things about officiating they want to on this forum. People talk officiating here, not just the mechanics of one body. IF that was the case why are you asking questions about NCAA Mechanics which you obviously are not aware of?

I do not recall that everyone knows what my state does and I personally do not care if they know. I was answering a question to a specific person and if you found information that was interesting, that is on you. If you recall I did not quote anyone in my first response.

If you only want to talk about the NF and what the NF does, go to the NF site and talk there. If you have not noticed, many officials do not even go to that site probably because the focus is so narrow. And even there people discuss things they do all the time in their locations. If that is a problem, then you are going to have to continue to deal with this type of conversation from me, because I have been doing this from day one and will continue to do so. I do not care what other states do when an official from my state is asking a mechanics question. One of these days either you or the moderators will understand that ideal and take appropriate action. Until that time I will continue the positions I take on this and other similar topics.

Peace