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-   -   The Primal Scream (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39610-primal-scream.html)

Bad Zebra Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:07pm
The Primal Scream
 
Boys pre-season game last night. B1 completes a nice dunk..there's one team A body on the floor from incidental contact...B1 lands, bows up his chest as opponent is coming off the floor and lets out a primal scream that lasted about 3 seconds. I whack him with a T for unsportsmanlike/taunting. I thought he held the high note a little longer than he needed to and was trying to intimidate team A.

Checked with my partners for their opinion at the half and they said they would have just warned him or ignored it because team B was losing by about 12 points.

My question: What does everyone use as a standard of tolerance for the "primal scream"? Seems like I've been hearing it more the last couple seasons after a hard dunk.

Dan_ref Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:10pm
Everybody has their own trigger on these things.

That said, I certainly would not have been 'reffing the scoreboard' in the first half and especally not on the play you described. Not the best advice you could have gotten IMO.

Sounds like a good T.

rockyroad Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:22pm
I actually (cough, cough, choke, gag) agree with Dan.:D There are some things that might be over-looked in the closing seconds of a blow-out game, but in the first half??? And certainly not something which falls under taunting - that kind of crap will only lead to more problems down the road.

Dan_ref Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:33pm
Is it too late for me to change my vote?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:39pm
I don't care when in the game this bozo from Team B does a bow and primal scream after a dunk, he is getting WHACKED!!

MTD, Sr.

Mark Dexter Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:42pm
I don't care when it happens or what the score is - if taunting occurs, I T it up every time.

Adam Wed Nov 14, 2007 05:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Zebra
Checked with my partners for their opinion at the half and they said they would have just warned him or ignored it because team B was losing by about 12 points.
Sounds classically pusillanimous.

TimTaylor Wed Nov 14, 2007 06:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I don't care when in the game this bozo from Team B does a bow and primal scream after a dunk, he is getting WHACKED!!
MTD, Sr.
My sentiments exactly!

mick Wed Nov 14, 2007 07:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I don't care when in the game this bozo from Team B does a bow and primal scream after a dunk, he is getting WHACKED!!

MTD, Sr.
Would you *whack* a one-second long primal scream, if the dunker made no eye contact with any opponent but only turned and jogged back to defend?

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 14, 2007 08:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Would you *whack* a one-second long primal scream, if the dunker made no eye contact with any opponent but only turned and jogged back to defend?
Mick, what is the object of these primal screams in your learned opinion, no matter how long they are?

My own opinion is that it's a borrowed practice from the NBA, and its only done for one of two reasons, or maybe both reasons---> (1) drawing attention to themselves <i>a la</i> chest beating, etc., or (2) taunting the other team.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 14, 2007 08:46pm
For all of those who have responded so far that this is a technical foul: Do you also believe that screaming at an opponent going in for a layup is a T?

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 14, 2007 08:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
For all of those who have responded so far that this is a technical foul: Do you also believe that screaming at an opponent going in for a layup is a T?
Whatinthehell has one got to do with the other?:confused:

Screaming at opponent going in for a layup is done with the intent of trying to break the concentration of the shooter. There's no specific rule against doing so. You tell me though...what is the <b>intent</b> of a player making a primal scream? Hint.....pull out your 2003-04 rule book and read POE 1A.

mick Wed Nov 14, 2007 09:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Whatinthehell has one got to do with the other?:confused:


Screaming at opponent going in for a layup is done with the intent of trying to break the concentration of the shooter. There's no specific rule against doing so. You tell me though...what is the intent of a player making a primal scream? Hint.....pull out your 2003-04 rule book and read POE 1A.

2003-2004 POE 1
A. Taunting/Self-Promotion: ....While many of these actions are not specifically illegal by rule, extreme behaviors could and should be considered taunting and baiting of the opponents....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Mick, what is the object of these primal screams in your learned opinion, no matter how long they are?

My own opinion is that it's a borrowed practice from the NBA, and its only done for one of two reasons, or maybe both reasons---> (1) drawing attention to themselves a la chest beating, etc., or (2) taunting the other team.
JR,
The Dunker may have missed 10 shots in a row and gave the *primal scream* out of relief of finally putting the ball in the hole.

I do not think all screams must be automatic technical fouls.

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 14, 2007 09:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
[INDENT]
2003-2004 POE 1
A. Taunting/Self-Promotion: Players are increasingly directing their <font color = red>celebratory</font> actions towards opponents, which should be interpreted as taunting and baiting, and penalized accordingly. Further the committee is concerned about players <font color = red>playing to the crowd", attempting to increase attention and praise for their own individual accomplishments rather than toward the game itself and team achievements.</font> While many of these actions are not specifically illegal by rule, extreme behavior could and should be considered taunting and baiting of the opponents.


JR,
The Dunker may have missed 10 shots in a row and gave the *primal scream* out of relief of finally putting the ball in the hole.

I do not think all screams must be automatic technical fouls.
Yup, I agree with you. It is always a judgment call imo. And it is only automatic in <b>some</b> cases. But if I judge that the player only screamed to draw attention to himself, play to the crowd or taunt the other team, then I'm gonna whack him. And from the description in the original post, it sounds like that's exactly what the player did.

Note that I put in the rest of the FED rationale that was included in the language of that POE.

Dan_ref Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mick

JR,
The Dunker may have missed 10 shots in a row and gave the *primal scream* out of relief of finally putting the ball in the hole.

I do not think all screams must be automatic technical fouls.
Ya know what Mick? I think most of us - even good old Bhuch - can recognize the difference between a taunting scream and an outburst of relief. The OP obviously did not mean to say the screamer was overjoyed by his ability to *finally* put one in the hole.

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Ya know what Mick? I think most of us - even good old Bhuch - can recognize the difference between a taunting scream and an outburst of relief. The OP obviously did not mean to say the screamer was overjoyed by his ability to *finally* put one in the hole.
And.....another point that's relevant imo is that it was a high school game. There is a completely different officiating philosophy involved with that group as opposed to college players, and certainly NBA players. There's a much lower tolerance level involved towards possible unsporting acts as you go down the ladder.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
There's a much lower tolerance level involved towards possible unsporting acts as you go down the ladder.
and that is why I asked earlier about screaming at an opposing player attempting a layup.

4-19-14 anyone?
. . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.

mick Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Ya know what Mick? I think most of us - even good old Bhuch - can recognize the difference between a taunting scream and an outburst of relief. The OP obviously did not mean to say the screamer was overjoyed by his ability to *finally* put one in the hole.
Hey, all I did was ask MTD a question.:)

mick Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
For all of those who have responded so far that this is a technical foul: Do you also believe that screaming at an opponent going in for a layup is a T?
Depends what the screamer screamed. That act, too, is not automatic.:)

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
and that is why I asked earlier about screaming at an opposing player attempting a layup.

<font color = red>4-19-14 anyone?</font>
. . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
OOO anyone?

Dan_ref Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
OOO anyone?
Nah, I'm trying to quit, thanks.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:52pm
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Nevadaref
and that is why I asked earlier about screaming at an opposing player attempting a layup.

4-19-14 anyone?
. . . An unsporting foul is a noncontact technical foul which consists of unfair, unethical, dishonorable conduct or any behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
OOO anyone?
Better be careful, JR. Someone might accuse you of being an official who fails to punish unsporting conduct. I'd rather be seen as OO than that!

Jurassic Referee Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Quote:

Better be careful, JR. Someone might accuse you of being an official who fails to punish unsporting conduct. I'd rather be seen as OOO than that!
No fear of me being accused of that, Nevada.

There's a big difference between failing to punish unsporting conduct and failing to understand what unsporting conduct actually is. An OOO can't tell the difference.

Nevadaref Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:24pm
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra.../smilielol.gif

Corndog89 Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:33pm
What is OOO? Thanks...

Jurassic Referee Thu Nov 15, 2007 06:29am
Overly officious official.

rainmaker Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Ya know what Mick? I think most of us - even good old Bhuch -
C'mon Dan. If you're going to misspell it, at least misspell it correctly!

Dan_ref Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
C'mon Dan. If you're going to misspell it, at least misspell it correctly!
So now we have mispelled mispelling nazis patrolling the board.

How nice for us.

:rolleyes:

rainmaker Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
So now we have mispelled mispelling nazis patrolling the board.

How nice for us.

:rolleyes:
MMN's. Just to keep the OOO's honest.

Jurassic Referee Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
So now we have mispelled mispelling nazis patrolling the board.

How nice for us.

:rolleyes:
Shouldn't that be mispelled mispelling feminazis?

Try to be gender specific. It shows much more empathy if you at least attempt to do so.

rainmaker Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Shouldn't that be mispelled mispelling feminazis?

Try to be gender specific. It shows much more empathy if you at least attempt to do so.
Where is it you're headed, btw?

Adam Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Where is it you're headed, btw?
Oh Oh Oh! I know! I know!

Jurassic Referee Thu Nov 15, 2007 09:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Where is it you're headed, btw?
Full speed ahead, as usual.

Dan_ref Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Full speed ahead, as usual.
Damning the torpedoes as usual.

Jurassic Referee Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Damning the torpedoes as usual.
Nope, I have too much empathy for torpedoes(both male <b>and</b> female) to even think of that.

rockyroad Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Full speed ahead, as usual.
In the immortal words of Captain Jean-Luc Picard, "Make it so, Number 1."

mbyron Thu Nov 15, 2007 02:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Overly officious official.
Right, and they're quite objectionable. On this board we want our officials to be just the right amount of officious.

Never liked that term...hmph.

Mark Padgett Thu Nov 15, 2007 03:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainmaker
Where is it you're headed, btw?
Kansas. Then he can dunk during pregame! :rolleyes:

buckrog64 Thu Nov 15, 2007 03:16pm
Sounds to me like he went over the line in calling attention to himself....good whack! Bet it's a while before he does it again.


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