At what point do you acknowledge fans/parents?
 

So, I was working a 7/8 girls doubleheader tonight and in the 2nd game we ran into an unruly group of parents. There was about 20 of them total and 10 or 12 were the type to complain about any and every call/no-call. They were screaming at us EVERY TIME down the floor. The insults were getting personal and it really angered me that they would display this type of sportsmanship in front of the impressionable girls.

Towards the end of the game, I was very close to having game management take care of it, but decided to hold off. Just a very frustrating night, I've only been a referee for 3 years but it was the worst I've seen at any level. And it was a junior high game!

At the point which I ask game management to remove them. Until then I ignore them.

A Coach's View
 

I would ask the coach of those fans to intervene. After that, get them out

Do you give them a chance to knock it off before doing so? It also must be noted that they were still yelling when the game had been long decided (*their* team was ahead by 20-25 points through most of the 2nd half).

Perhaps it would be easier if I would just quote what it says in the NFHS rules book.

2-8-1 NOTE: The home management or game committee is responsible for spectator behavior, insofar as it can reasonably be expected to control the spectators. The officials may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game. Discretion must be used in calling such fouls, however, lest a team be unjustly penalized. When team supporters become unruly or interfere with the orderly progress of the game, the officials shall stop the game until the host management resolves the situation and the game can proceed in an orderly manner. In the absence of a designated school representative, the home coach shall serve as the host management.

Interesting. Obviously that's something I want to do as a last resort, I just wanted to get others' opinions. Oddly enough, neither of us heard a peep out of the coach all night, it was just this one group of fans.

Thanks for the input.

Fans? ......... What fans?

Seriously, I completely ignore them unless they cross the line, at which point 2-8-1 comes into play per Nevadaref's post.

At the minimum, say something to your assignor, and perhaps he/she can talk to the AD or the league about working more on sportsmanship.

If they are getting personal, I think it's over the line. If they get abusive or specifically insulting as opposed to just loudly disagreeing, it's over the line. Then you need to stop the game and have game management take care of it.

The advice to "ignore them until they cross the line" doesn't really answer the OP's question, which asks where to draw the line.

I think that the PPP rule is still in effect, with 2 provisos: one, I really don't hear the crowd much, so they're going to have to be pretty loudly personal or profane to get my attention; two, prolonged is rather longer for fans than for coaches.

With coaches, nip it in the bud. With fans, ignore it as long as possible.

Hope that helps with drawing the line!

The biggest question to me at that level is what impact are the idiot parents having on the girls? Are they inciting the girls to do things that are having an impact on the game? As long as the game is under control in my judgement, the parents can yell and scream all they want (obviously without profanity, etc)....

Took me a couple seconds, but I figured it out!

My opinion is if it's affecting your ability to concentrate on the game, it needs to stop. If it's getting personal and you can't tune it out, it needs to stop. It's up to you.

Some refs never hear the fans. I tend to listen for the entertainment value, but eventually tune them out as the game progresses.

Again, though. If it's personally abusive, or if it's affecting your ability to concentrate on the game, have game management deal with it. GM may very well give the fans a chance to calm down before giving them the boot.

I heard the "I am blind, I am deaf. . ." chant over the weekend. That was fun. :)

Not always recommended, but:

At one frosh game early in my career, I had nearly the same situation. I waited until one egregious comment (the fan wanted 3-seconds on a multiple try / rebound / try ... "play" with all 10 players in the lane), stopped the game when one team gained control, pointed to the fan and said, "You're gone" (giving my best baseball ejection mechanic). After he left, I explained the rule to the rest of the parents. There were some "ooh -- I didn't know that" comments and the rest of the game went smoothly.

I've found that I really tune out the fans during the game. Not consciously, though. I just get so focused on the action that I don't hear it.
It would really have to be personal , profane and prolonged to get my attention, and luckily its never gotten to that point yet.

Thanks for the responses. To answer some questions, it was definitely prolonged. I have never had any problems with fans but, with a packed high school gym, it's actually easier to ignore than if there are only 100 people (as was the case last night) at a junior high game.

I also felt that they were inciting their own team and frustrating the opponents. They were screaming about rules that don't exist (ex: 3 seconds during a throw in, they also thought that a FT shooter only has 5 seconds to shoot) as well as screaming foul on nearly every missed shot. Keep in mind, this game was a blowout and there team was ahead.

Again - I appreciate the responses. I didn't address them the whole time and I think I should have.

Was this a school sponsored game or an AAU/YMCA/travel league game of some sort? How involved was game management in general?

Until they become treatening to me, partners or players...fans can do what ever they want. This is not golf, being loud is totally acceptable.

WOW, you actually gave a rules clinic in the middle of a game? You got some guts man, I'll give you that. Personally, I wanna keep my job, if they wanna learn the rules they can do it on their own time. :D

School game. Game management was as involved as anyone could ask, considering the level. He checked on us between halves and sat at the end of the bleachers while the game was being played.

Unfortunately, you can't officiate stupidity by the fans and you can't stop the game to give them a rules clinic. If anything, I would consider saying something to the coach or AD. I would tend to think that without the first two P's, you were better off ignoring it.:)

If it was bad enough that you had to post about it, maybe you should have said something to game management. Was it going on before half-time? That might be a good time to ask them to keep an eye on their fans as they were getting borderline out of hand. I wouldn't be afraid to dump someone in a JH game. Some of those parents have no idea what sportsmanship looks like. In fact, the only fan I've ever had removed was from a JH game. He also happened to be on the school board of the district I worked in. Not a great situation, but he needed to go.

I think you should have too.

If you can pull it off just stop the game and quietly appeal to them as adults to take a closer look at where they are and the age of the players.

If not that then pick one & just toss 'em. That *always* works.

I agree with most of what the others have said...listen for the entertainment factor. If it becomes overly personal and crosses the line into affecting your ability to focus on the game out of fear for your physical well being, then you should tell management.

I think the level is important also...I'm going to have a heck of a lot more tolerance the higher the level. THe lower level rec league stuff...it's about sportsmanship and I won't hesitate to say something directly to the parents and if need be toss em...For the most part, you just gotta ignore it.

I have on occassion when waiting to resume play tried to lighten the mood and made a joke about their comments...Something like, "Man, you guys are all OVER the calls today..." see what they say and see if you can joke about it and lightetn the situation...I've found that if they see the "human side" of us, it sometimes eases their tension...

In my rec league that I sit on the board and ref in....I stopped a game and told an overly loud, obnoxious dad during 5/6 grade playoff game last year that I had heard enough of his comments...He got smart with me that I was addressing him (something about I should be focused on the game and not him)....at that point I told him I was no longer the ref speaking to him and it was now the Board Member for the league and if he wanted to continue watching from the gym, he'd be quiet the rest of the game. Didn't hear another word from him...After the game his wife came up and apologized to me for his behavior....

EDIT: As DanRef said...the guy you toss should be the first one that goes smart *** after you appeal to them as an adult...

It's obvious that your concentration was affected. The tolerance level for this is going to vary by official. Some have just never experienced this level of behavior, some have just never heard it because they legitimately tune it out during a game. There's nothing that says you should have to take the abuse, just because some refs can tune it out.

I wouldn't address them personally, though. Stop the game, get game management to deal with it. They will deal with the problem. If they were sitting near them, they should have dealt with it already.

Right: I first learned about the rule (sometimes called the 3 P's) for baseball, but it works just as well in basketball.

I had a coach tell me last weekend that a foul I had just called was a "terrible call." Then he stopped. Fine: he's entitled to his opinion of the call. It's the guy who goes on to say "you're terrible" who gets the T for a personal comment.

In fact, on that particular occasion, the coach was correct. It was a terrible call. :o We later laughed about even refs needing the pre-season.

I've done this with wreck ball parents a couple of times in my career. You just have to pick the spot and it seemed to do the trick. One time going from back court to front court and having both feet and the ball in the front court. And, sort of like with Bob, parents said "OK, thanks, we didn't know that."

So, once they give you treats, they have to stop? :confused: Seems like it should be the other way around.

No, I don't like treats, only threats! ;)

How I handled a similar situation
 

Working 3 whistle, 8th grade A level championship. Large crowd for the size of the gym, about 350 people, made for a good atmosphere. Allowed parents from both teams to stand along baseline wall (about 10' away from the court).

One 'parent' from the home team starts consistently screaming at my partners and me on every trip down to that end of the floor, becasue the home team was shooting at the far basket and every trip down the court we were missing something or had our 'heads up our @$$3$'. After the last comment, towards the end of the first quarter, I gave game management a heads up that the next comment of such ilk would require us to clear the baseline. Sure enough, next time down he gives my partner an earful as we are setting up to shoot free throws, so I walk over directly in front of the 'parent' and order the baseline cleared. Game management was very helpful, and told the 'parent' that was enough. The 'parent' turned bright red, then quietly watched the rest of the game from the corner.

Embarrasment tends to work very well in these situations, and it performed beautifully in this one.

What he said.

How does the rest of it go?

SeanFitzRef, just curious as to what part of Chicago are you from? I grew up on the South Side - obviously a White Sox fan.

Last year I tossed a parent from a Wreck league game. You know the type, obnoxious, and unhappy that his son is not "getting the calls." As it turns out, his son and my sister are in the same grade (7th, this year). Actually, the two are very good friends.

I had the oppurtunity to have dinner with this fellow on Sunday. Not a dinner date, but more of a Sunday afternoon football party.

The first thing out of the guy's mouth when I walked in was, "Are you still mad at me?"

I replied with, "I was never mad at you. I was just tired of hearing your nonsense. I don't come to your work and pretend to be an expert at your vocation, so why did you try and do that with me?"

Stumped, this guy could not find anything to say back. Finally he conjured up, "I never thought about it that way. To be honest with you, ever since you threw me out of that game, I developed an entirely new respect for officials."

We'll see if he holds true to this statement. This year he is coaching a team in the league.

Last saturday, doing 2nd of 4 games of 5th grade boys school ball (1st game for teams), saw something I've never seen....
League rules are no pressing until 4th Qtr, or ahead by 10 pts,---- home team up 15+ in the 4th, visitors press and home team crowd complaining about that. Several transitions with home crowd yelling ea time. Finally at a timeout, game mngmt -sitting at the table, stands, walks to center court and loudly addresses all on that rule.....

Wow
 

At times we all react to calls. As a coach/player/fan and official we all have different angles on the same play. We can't possibly see the things the otherone does. We can react. Disappointment, disagreement whatever, but it should never cross the line to becoming personal.

At the risk of preaching to the choir, officials shouldn't have to take that. When attacks become personal, it demonstrates incredible immaturity. I coached an 8th grade girls team last year and I can tell you that even the most competitive girl playing at this age is there to socialize as much as win. Watch them after them game. I am sure that the kids get incredibly embarrased when they realize its their parents doing this.

If this is a team you have to officiate for again, I would suggest that during the pregame the officials approach both coaches to watch for this and ask for their assistance controlling the crowd if necessary. You can tell that problems have occured in the league recently and we want to nip this in the bud (they don't need to know that it was their team).

Honestly, I don't care what's said. If they start interfering with the game, they'll be out of there, and fast. I've had games where either the school or the police got fans out long before I ever would have.

One time I had a playoff game where a kid goes out of bounds chasing a loose ball. He stepped on the line before touching the ball, so I call OOB, but he ends up in the stands. Most of the fans sitting around protect themselves and everything's OK, but one idiot, who wasn't even touched by this kid, gets up and basically gets in his face and says something. I was sort of shocked since we hadn't had any trouble all night, but the kid's first reaction to level this guy was stopped by a teammate (and me as soon as I figured out what was happening). On my way over to the table to get someone to get this guy out of there, I looked back over my shoulder to get a better description and this cop (with arms and shoulders as big as Iowa) is on him. I stop and watch while this cop gets rid of the guy and we play on.

A few minutes later we had a time out or something and I see the cop near the baseline where I am. I walked over and said, "hey, man, thanks for the help on that guy." He looked at me and said, "you're my man!"

We are all compilation of our own circumstances. In any 7/8 grade game I have been to has not had officers their to enforce the peace. Unfortunately, I am aware that this is not the case everywhere.

In the original case described in this thread there may be other resources that sometimes help. In addition, officials that have far more game experience would take other actions.

Like I said in my last response in no case should an official have to take the kind of verbal abuse that was given. In your description, there should never, ever be the kind of physical contact that you described. I am glad that I have never coached in, nor my kids played in that kind of environment.

One final note, this last fall in our middle school age football league, there was a point of emphasis from the league for the coaches to control the sidelines including the fans. Twice, I felt that our fans had continued their yelling beyond what I was comfortable with. Each time I walked onto the field and looked at the fans and said enough. Both times the fans calmed down and each time, I was thanked by the officials afterward.

It can work sometimes, but not in all. I hope you don't face too many environments like you described.

Bribe a kid to throw a bad pass REAL HARD in the direction of the worst offender.:D

Had a freshman girls game, total blow out (V losing), 9 fans in the whole gym including two obnoxious boys who were really razzing one visiting player who was somewhat overweight. Comments not loud, but very comprehensible and absolutely offensive.

The player was getting rattled. No game management in sight. Home coach not even noticing. Partner wasn't willing to address the situation. Middle of second quarter, I went over to stands and said in my most mother bear voice, "You idiots!! Either shut up or get out!" I'm big and loud, but not usually very aggressive or confrontive so I wasnt sure how it would go over, but they got up and left in a hurry.

When AD finally showed his face again, I just reported what I'd done. He asked me to come outside and identify the boys, who were in fact, still standing around!! He talked to them and kicked them off the property.

Would that work on some posters here?

Nah, it's been tried.

I learned many years ago that if you are going to acknowledge parents/fans at all be very careful. I was doing a Middle School girl's tournament game and the visiting fans/parents thought they were getting the shaft on some calls. After one such call, I told them "we'll do the refereeing now thank you". One parent yells back, "Yeah when are you gonna start?"

After that I learned to be very choosy what if anything you say to the crowd.

"Now and good-bye to you, Sir"

Usually barking with the fans is a losing situation. If it's that bad, toss someone, and keep tossing people until they get the message. Make damn sure they deserve it though. I hate to punish the players because their fans are jerks, but sometimes if you get picky on stuff and you call fouls that are truly fouls but at other times you might have let them go, then sometimes a message can be sent and hopefully received.

Now you <b>are</b> punishing the players for their fans though. That's just wrong. Be consistent with your foul-calling and forget about "sending messages" to people who aren't causing you the problems in the first place.

One thing I really miss is hearing any chants from the stands like the one we used to do in HS when we thought a call went against us (which was most of the time). Chants like, "Elevator, elevator, we got the shaft".

Also, we'd yell when an opponent was going to shoot a FT, "See that basket, see that ball, c'mon stupid, hit the wall".

We never got reprimanded for any of it. Different times.

Oh yeah - some of us would yell in Latin, too. :p