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-   -   back pick, give a step, does anyone call this today (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/39305-back-pick-give-step-does-anyone-call-today.html)

boiseball Thu Nov 01, 2007 05:03pm
back pick, give a step, does anyone call this today
 
you know what the book says: 40-4-4, when screening from behind you must give one normal step back.

I would have to say that I have never seen this called; maybe my memory does not serve or maybe coaches teach this religiously

on the other hand, I can picture back picks and how guys get right behind the guy being screened

anyone have any tips on how they handle this rule, maybe you guys have thought deeply on this one; it has not been a part of my repetoire to this point and maybe I am missing some stuff I need to be calling; I think I have always treated it like any other pic, stationary and not creating the contact was good enough for me

boiseball Thu Nov 01, 2007 05:10pm
similarly, 4-40-5: screening a moving opponent, you must give space; again, this is a situation where rule book and case book (10.6.11, A & B) suggest that merely being set is not enough; anyone have tips in this area where again I have not called much in terms of an blocking team control foul for "being set but not giving time and distance"

does this get called; are there specific instances that happen a lot that I should be looking for where I can apply this rule and not get destroyed by everyone in the gym who yells "he was set"

boiseball Thu Nov 01, 2007 05:31pm
since I am on a role going through my screening rules:
anyone have any thoughts on what visual field means? in 4-40-3 it seemingly refers to screens from the front and side and I would think it is talking about the area that can easily be seen by just swiveling the head from side to side because obviously the guy being screened may not actually see the person who is in the visual field

on the other hand, 4-40-7 seems to define visual field as what is actually being seen by the person, not just what is to the front and side of them; only when they actually do see the screen can they be blamed for running into it and causing contact, it is "incidental contact" as the rule describes it; for example, you are running forward full bore and looking back for the ball and you crash into someone who has decided to plant themselves in front of you; that "screen" by the defender was in front of you, but is arguably outside of your visual field because you are looking back

sorry, this thread has become my repository for questions I need to resolve for myself.

Splute Thu Nov 01, 2007 06:34pm
In my short time in the biz, I cant say I have seen many screens set from behind. Of those I have seen, there was a step or so given and incidental or no contact. But the offense did a poor job setting it up. Most screens have been on the side. But most of the kids yell screen to each other to warn when they are setting. Most of my screening calls have been for forearms or stepping out of their body width, such as hips, legs extended as the player goes by.

Mark Padgett Thu Nov 01, 2007 07:20pm
The title of this thread reminds me of that great song, "Back pick, give a step, pick a bail of cotton......." :rolleyes:

jer166 Thu Nov 01, 2007 08:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
you know what the book says: 40-4-4, when screening from behind you must give one normal step back.

I would have to say that I have never seen this called; maybe my memory does not serve or maybe coaches teach this religiously

on the other hand, I can picture back picks and how guys get right behind the guy being screened

anyone have any tips on how they handle this rule, maybe you guys have thought deeply on this one; it has not been a part of my repetoire to this point and maybe I am missing some stuff I need to be calling; I think I have always treated it like any other pic, stationary and not creating the contact was good enough for me
I have called this. It is a matter of being aware of what the offense is doing and determine if the screener is set, outside the vision of the defender and if he has allowed a step. Most instances where I have seen the back screener set the screen without giving a step there has not been any contact. Contact must occur to make the action illegal.

rainmaker Thu Nov 01, 2007 08:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jer166
Most instances where I have seen the back screener set the screen without giving a step there has not been any contact. Contact must occur to make the action illegal.
This is what I see the most.

Camron Rust Thu Nov 01, 2007 09:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
similarly, 4-40-5: screening a moving opponent, you must give space; again, this is a situation where rule book and case book (10.6.11, A & B) suggest that merely being set is not enough; anyone have tips in this area where again I have not called much in terms of an blocking team control foul for "being set but not giving time and distance"

does this get called; are there specific instances that happen a lot that I should be looking for where I can apply this rule and not get destroyed by everyone in the gym who yells "he was set"
Yes, this gets called. If the screener is clearly there before the contact (I'm using dots to imply time: set.......contact), it's probably early enough....if it is almost the same time (setcontact, or even set..contact), it's probably too late.

Remember, too, that situations where this could be called may not create an advantage for the screener's team and might be a no call.

Camron Rust Thu Nov 01, 2007 09:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
since I am on a role going through my screening rules:
anyone have any thoughts on what visual field means? in 4-40-3 it seemingly refers to screens from the front and side and I would think it is talking about the area that can easily be seen by just swiveling the head from side to side because obviously the guy being screened may not actually see the person who is in the visual field

on the other hand, 4-40-7 seems to define visual field as what is actually being seen by the person, not just what is to the front and side of them; only when they actually do see the screen can they be blamed for running into it and causing contact, it is "incidental contact" as the rule describes it; for example, you are running forward full bore and looking back for the ball and you crash into someone who has decided to plant themselves in front of you; that "screen" by the defender was in front of you, but is arguably outside of your visual field because you are looking back

sorry, this thread has become my repository for questions I need to resolve for myself.
Visual field is where a player could be expected to see....otherwise, they could close their eyes and bowl over people.

Kelvin green Thu Nov 01, 2007 09:14pm
Screening is a comtinual POE.

From experience the fans are hardly ever going to scream that a screen was set. Why? because they are watching the ball and they arent watching the screen until there is a collision.

More often than not if there are complaints it is because the screen is "movng" or "not set"

You have to watch the whole play and this is whre refereeing the defense really comes into play. If the player can see the screen there is no step requirement so ask yourself can he really see the screen. If it is truly from behind and the screened player cannot see the screen, if they dont get a step and it is not called, you put the defense at a severe disadvantage. Many times on a screen outside the field of vision, the defense "feels" it and goes around it... On a true back pick, how many screened players actually step back into the screen... You will see the good players know the screen is ther and actually roll a round the screen. The real disadvantage is where the screened player rolls one way and the tries to cut off the player again... that is the foul I see the most, call, the most and hear the "but comon ref its just a pick and roll" the most

boiseball Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust
Visual field is where a player could be expected to see....otherwise, they could close their eyes and bowl over people.
thanks Camron, that does seem to link the two rules: "expected to see", that makes sense

boiseball Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin green
Screening is a comtinual POE.

If the player can see the screen there is no step requirement

yes, but if the player is moving there is a time and distance requirement, so you can still call a foul for setting the screen too close to the moving player

so ask yourself can he really see the screen. If it is truly from behind and the screened player cannot see the screen, if they dont get a step and it is not called, you put the defense at a severe disadvantage. Many times on a screen outside the field of vision, the defense "feels" it and goes around it... On a true back pick, how many screened players actually step back into the screen... You will see the good players know the screen is ther and actually roll a round the screen.

all good comments; I guess the idea is that the severe disadvantage is that the player does not have the space to keep from hitting the screener and getting hung up on the screen, so we look to see if the player had enough space to get around or were they somehow put at a big disadvantage by the player being too close; guess I will have to watch for it a couple times this year and try and get a feel for when I might need to call something

The real disadvantage is where the screened player rolls one way and the tries to cut off the player again... that is the foul I see the most, call, the most and hear the "but comon ref its just a pick and roll" the most
that play is one of the toughest plays for me to referee; where a player sets the ball pick and then just as the defender tries to slide under the pick, the screener acts like they are rolling to the basket and therefore takes the smaller defender with him, forcing the switch where the defender was only intending to go under the screen; it is devastating to the defense but hard to call because a smart screener never looks at the defender or purposely grabs him, instead he just rolls to the basket

I would love tips on how to call that play

Camron Rust Fri Nov 02, 2007 02:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
that play is one of the toughest plays for me to referee; where a player sets the ball pick and then just as the defender tries to slide under the pick, the screener acts like they are rolling to the basket and therefore takes the smaller defender with him, forcing the switch where the defender was only intending to go under the screen; it is devastating to the defense but hard to call because a smart screener never looks at the defender or purposely grabs him, instead he just rolls to the basket

I would love tips on how to call that play
Tweet. You can tell if the defender is switching or trying to go under. If they going under and the "roller" is moving into their path, call the foul (if there is contact and an advantage).

You can, in some cases, be slow on that whistle to see what develops....if the offense doesn't benefit from the situation (the dribbler doesn't go anywhere or make the pass to the roller) and the screened player still gets around the screen and continues to defend the dribbler, you might be able to pass on it.

Nevadaref Fri Nov 02, 2007 05:49am
If you aren't enforcing the screening rules correctly, then you are contributing to the rough play that the NFHS is striving to reduce.
Can you provide a reason why one shouldn't penalize an illegal back screen that failed to allow the opponent one step backwards prior to contact?

PS The NFHS considers the visual field of a player to be anything to his front or sides, only behind him is not part of it. It says so right there in the rules:;)

4-40-3 . . . When screening a stationary opponent from the front or side (within the visual field), the screener may be anywhere short of contact.

NOTE: the red text is NEW. It was not in the 2006-07 rules book. Yet another unannounced editorial change! :)

Scrapper1 Fri Nov 02, 2007 08:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseball
a player sets the ball pick and then just as the defender tries to slide under the pick, the screener acts like they are rolling to the basket and therefore takes the smaller defender with him, forcing the switch where the defender was only intending to go under the screen
At one of the first camps I went to, a camper made this call twice on the same guy within about 5 minutes of game time. The observer (a D1 ref) told him that was "a good college play" and should not be a foul. A second observer (a college assignor) came over to tell the camper, "Great call".

So you're not alone in wanting tips on how to call the play. :) However, in high school, at least, I feel pretty safe in saying that the play is should usually be called a foul.


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