NFHS - Jump ball. Player A1 catches the tip. We all know there is a case play which tells us B get the ball and the Possession Arrow. My question is what if A1 steals the tip. That is, tips the ball before it reaches it's highest point. I'm not even concerned about those close ones, I mean one right out the Refs hand. Would you handle this violation the same as the caught jump ball case play. B ball and B possession arrow ???

112448 - I know, I know - NCAA Handles this 100% better than NFHS...

Jump violation, same as catching it.

First, NFHS and NCAA Rules handle jump ball violations and the initial setting of the arrow exactly the same way except the jump ball violation where A1 illegally catches the jump ball, and the NFHS and NCAA did not part ways on that one until the 1993-94 season.

Second, if A1 taps the ball while the ball is on its way up after leaving the Referee's hand(s), A1 has committed a jump ball violation. Both NHFS and NCAA say the Team B gets the possession of the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the arrow is set towards Team A's basket when the ball is placed at the disposable of Team B for the throw-in due to Team A's violation.

Brian, you are incorrect, see my posting immediately after yours.

As one of the other Marks stated, you are incorrect. However, besides just stating the rule or case, here's the reason in plain English.

When A1 catches the ball, he has fit the definition of player control (holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds) which establishes team control for his team. That's why team B gets the ball (because of the violation) and the arrow (team A had first team control, even though the catching was a violation).

When A1 commits a different kind of violation (tipping on the way up, tipping 3 times, etc), he has not established player control, and therefore not established first team control for his team.

What if A1 "snagged" (meaning grabbed with two hands) the ball with two hands on the way up, or out of the ref's hand? That would be back to the first of your situations with the arrow and the ball going to B, right? Your answer is depending on the word "tip" in the initial sitch, right?

No it would not. A1 touched the ball on the way up and that is the violation (both NFHS and NCAA). And for our friends who officiate under FIBA rules the jump ball provisions are the same as NFHS/NCAA.

This is a bit unlikely, but...
 

Okay, here's a situation that I thought I knew, but now you guys may have me confused. Assume NHFS here.

Mark said:
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Second, if A1 taps the ball while the ball is on its way up after leaving the Referee's hand(s), A1 has committed a jump ball violation. Both NHFS and NCAA say the Team B gets the possession of the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation and the arrow is set towards Team A's basket when the ball is placed at the disposable of Team B for the throw-in due to Team A's violation.
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Okay, so you switch the arrow as the player has the ball at his disposal? I thought that you always wait until the throw-in is complete or team A commits a throw-in violation. I know it seems the same, but take the case of a T. If B commits a T before the thrower has completed the throw-in, then A gets two shots and the ball. Furthermore, at least per NHFS, they should also keep the arrow too, since they never realized the privilege of having the AP arrow going their way.

Am I missing something here?

Re: This is a bit unlikely, but...
 

Yes you are missing something. A Jump Ball is a way of putting the ball into play. When a Jump Ball is used to put the ball into play it means that the Alternating Possession Arrow has not yet been set (NFHS/NCAA). The result of a Jump Ball is the initial setting of the direction of the AP Arrow. Also, the direction of the AP Arrow is not switched, it is reversed.

Mark T.:

I appreciate your suggestion regarding "reverse" versus "switch." However, I believe that many of us here use the term "switch" when speaking of the AP arrow. In fact, I have read this forum for months before posting, because I wanted to make sure I didn't upset the established members or waste their time with my posts. I noticed that Mark Dexter, who appears to be a fairly active and respected poster, used the term "switched," so I assumed it was ok to use it here.

Anyway, the question I had involved the AP arrow, and how to handle reversing it (NHFS). Let me make sure I have this straight: In a situation in which the arrow has not been set (beginning of game or OT), we set the arrow to point to B as soon as A1 has the ball at his disposal? This differs from any other AP case.

So in my earlier example, B5 commits a jump ball violation, so A gets the ball for a spot throw-in. We set the arrow in B's direction at this time. During A's throw-in, B commits a technical foul, so A shoots two and gets the ball. B gets the next jump ball.

If there was an AP throw-in at any other time in the game, we would switch the arrow when a) the throw-in was complete, or b) a throw-in violation had been committed.

Okay, do I have it right, now?

Yes, the procedure for setting the arow is different from (Juulie -- note the grammar!) the procedure for reversing it.

The arrow is SET when (a) a team gets control (99% of the time); (b) when a team gets "possession" for a throw-in (.99% of the time); (c) when a team gets "possession" for a FT w/ players on the line (.01% of the time). Note that this last example can only happen in OT when there is a personal foul during the jump ball period before a team secures control and the fouled team is in the bonus.

Quote:

So in my earlier example, B5 commits a jump ball violation, so A gets the ball for a spot throw-in. We set the arrow in B's direction at this time. During A's throw-in, B commits a technical foul, so A shoots two and gets the ball. B gets the next jump ball. If there was an AP throw-in at any other time in the game, we would switch the arrow when a) the throw-in was complete, or b) a throw-in violation had been committed Okay, do I have it right, now?

Yes.

Thanks
 

Thanks, Bob.

This is all very clear now...somehow I had forgotten about SETTING the possesion arrow!

Ha! You're following what the "worst ref in the world" has to say? :D

Mark T. D. is correct - the arrow is reversed, not switched.

Tell me, though, Mark, how do you read this function:

f(x) = -x

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

Tell me, though, Mark, how do you read this function: f(x) = -x

I'll take a stab at it. It's "the function at x equals negative x". When plotted, the function yields a straight line running diagnally from top-left to bottom-right through the origin (0,0).

How'd I do?

Chuck

Not quite. I posted this because of the whole switch/reverse issue which Mark T. DeNucci brought up. In this case, I'm a huge stickler for saying f of x is equal to the opposite of x.

Long night last night . . .

[/B][/QUOTE]

Not quite. I posted this because of the whole switch/reverse issue which Mark T. DeNucci brought up. In this case, I'm a huge stickler for saying f of x is equal to the opposite of x.

Long night last night . . . [/B][/QUOTE]

Man, I thought I was the only one that made a point of this! I think it came from my algebra teacher in high school. He was known to go off like Sam Kennison if you called -x "negative x," or god forbid, "minus x!"

Same here! You don't soon forget an 80-year-old priest shouting "Not minus! Opposite of X, opposite!!!"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter

Quote:

Same here! You don't soon forget an 80-year-old priest shouting "Not minus! Opposite of X, opposite!!!"

Since in math (particularly Algebra and above), "negative" means roughly the same thing as "oppsosite", what's the difference? What's the big deal about "negative"? I honestly don't know and I took a year and a half of college calculus.

Chuck

There's not much of a difference (my college calculus professor uses both), but negative refers to a number itself, as in "negative five" or "negative twenty-four." Saying "negative x" implies that f(x) is going to be a negative number whether the original x is positive or negative.

In the end, it matters about as much as "switching" or "reversing" the arrow :D.

The reason that I have been silent on this thread is that we were without electricity from 01:00pmEST, Jan. 31st, until 04:35amEST, Feb. 02nd. Having said that let me jump into the fray.

f(x) means: A function in terms of x. I know that is the obvious. We could aslo write f(x) = -x as: f(x) = y = -x.

Going with f(x) = -x, it means that for a given value of x = A, f(x = A) = -A. The plot of f(x) = -x, is a straight line with a slope of -1. The standard equation for a straight line is y = mx + b, where m is the slope of the line and b is the y-intercept at x = 0. So the value of
f(0) = 0.

I do not remember who wrote that his algebra teacher did not like calling -x: negative x or minus x. I can understand not calling it minus x, but negative x it quite acceptable. On the other hand F(x) = 3 - x would be read as three minus x, but could also be written and F(x) =
3 + (-x), which would be read as three plus negative x. But in either case the mathematical sentence says the same thing.

Just remember, I thing Mark Dexter started this nonsense.

Of course - blame it all on Dexter!! :D

(However, I should know better than to argue with an engineer!)

And to think that I used to never think that any good ever came out of power outages! :D