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Idaho Thu Oct 25, 2007 07:40pm

Head Coach privileges
 
I couldn't find anywhere in the book. If the Head Coach gets ejected, does the assistant coach get head coach privileges (ie, coaching box)?

Nevadaref Thu Oct 25, 2007 08:05pm

No. Once the coaching box is gone, it is gone for the rest of the game for all people with that team.

jer166 Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:18pm

However, he would assume all the head coach's duties & all other requirements for replacing DQ players, time outs, bench personnel, etc. would be his responsibility.

Nevadaref Fri Oct 26, 2007 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jer166
However, he would assume all the head coach's duties & all other requirements for replacing DQ players, time outs, bench personnel, etc. would be his responsibility.

That's been debated before. :eek:

jer166 Fri Oct 26, 2007 02:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
That's been debated before. :eek:

in what context?

Adam Fri Oct 26, 2007 03:04pm

The debate is whether or not the AC gets the HC responsibilities should the HC be removed. There's nothing in the rules that transports them to the AC, or that declares the AC the HC.

Splute Fri Oct 26, 2007 03:06pm

Head coach may prevent
 
I had never noticed the word PREVENT a timing mistake before... My bold lettering and Italics parenthesis....

The head coach may request a time-out or signal his/her players to request a time-out, while within the confines of the coaching box. The head coach may also confer with personnel at scorer's table (assumed while in coaching box) to request a 60-second time-out (or one 30-second time-out if that is the only type of time-out remaining) for a correctable error as in 2-10, or to prevent or rectify a timing or scoring mistake or alternating possession mistake.

Ch1town Fri Oct 26, 2007 03:11pm

So, does this mean the AC who is assuming the HC responsibilties is now allowed 3 direct/indirect Ts before DQ or is he still at 2?

Adam Fri Oct 26, 2007 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town
So, does this mean the AC who is assuming the HC responsibilties is now allowed 3 direct/indirect Ts before DQ or is he still at 2?

If you're going to give him indirects, you need to allow for three.
The question is whether he can request TOs, choose mandatory replacements, etc. If he can, give him the indirects as well.

jer166 Fri Oct 26, 2007 03:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
The debate is whether or not the AC gets the HC responsibilities should the HC be removed. There's nothing in the rules that transports them to the AC, or that declares the AC the HC.

So then let's assume a player is DQ'd for any reason. Who then replaces him? And what happens if a replacement isn't at the table within the required time limit?

Adam Fri Oct 26, 2007 03:35pm

Now you're starting to inject common sense into the argument. :)

26 Year Gap Fri Oct 26, 2007 05:20pm

Nothing prevents the AC from requesting that his players call time-out.

Adam Fri Oct 26, 2007 05:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap
Nothing prevents the AC from requesting that his players call time-out.

Nothing prevents the HC from doing the same, either. That didn't stop the rules committee from allowing him to request the TO directly.

However, without a HC, there is no one to replace a DQ'd player.
There is no one to request a TO for a correctable error.
There is no one to hold accountable for the bench players' behavior.

Jurassic Referee Fri Oct 26, 2007 05:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

However, without a HC, there is no one to replace a DQ'd player.
There is no one to request a TO for a correctable error.
There is no one to hold accountable for the bench players' behavior.

There is if you use a little common sense.

If it's not covered definitively, pick the option that's gonna help you the most....or hurt you the least. Someone has to control the l'il sh!ts, and also maybe help keep the game running smoothly. Put the onus on the assistant coach. It might be to your benefit.

Adam Fri Oct 26, 2007 05:46pm

There you go inserting common sense into this.

Splute Fri Oct 26, 2007 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
There is if you use a little common sense.

If it's not covered definitively, pick the option that's gonna help you the most....or hurt you the least. Someone has to control the l'il sh!ts, and also maybe help keep the game running smoothly. Put the onus on the assistant coach. It might be to your benefit.

What is that little note of a rule that states if there is no rule that applies, the Official's judgement shall rule? Not verbatim of course.

Splute Fri Oct 26, 2007 06:15pm

I am referring to rule 2-3: The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules.

jer166 Fri Oct 26, 2007 06:24pm

In Los Angeles City Section if the head coach is ejected the game is over...a forfeit is declared. It would be great if other sections, leagues, or even NFHS had the courage to do this.

Back In The Saddle Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jer166
In Los Angeles City Section if the head coach is ejected the game is over...a forfeit is declared. It would be great if other sections, leagues, or even NFHS had the courage to do this.

I'm curious. Has this policy improved HC behavior? Or has it only made officials more reluctant to toss the coach, thus empowering HC's to behave ever more badly?

Nevadaref Sat Oct 27, 2007 02:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Nothing prevents the HC from doing the same, either. That didn't stop the rules committee from allowing him to request the TO directly.

However, without a HC, there is no one to replace a DQ'd player.
There is no one to request a TO for a correctable error.
There is no one to hold accountable for the bench players' behavior.

Then the HC should have taken steps not to get DQ'd. If his removal results in his team losing certain privileges, too bad, there's a certain justice in that.

Notice that players can still be DQ'd because ANY coach can be notified for this since the rule does not specify HEAD coach.

If the player isn't replaced in time, a team technical foul can be charged.

BktBallRef Sat Oct 27, 2007 09:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jer166
In Los Angeles City Section if the head coach is ejected the game is over...a forfeit is declared.

So if three players dunk during pre-game (and KSRef07 isn't on the floor), then the game results in a forfeit?

Mark Dexter Sat Oct 27, 2007 09:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Notice that players can still be DQ'd because ANY coach can be notified for this since the rule does not specify HEAD coach.

Technically yes, although 4.14.1 C indicates that the head coach should be notified. When the HC is present, I'd say that you go to him/her. I do agree that the HC being ejected doesn't mean that players can no longer be DQed.

Quote:

If the player isn't replaced in time, a team technical foul can be charged.
Really?? Other than invoking 10-1-5, I don't see how that would be possible.

Jurassic Referee Sat Oct 27, 2007 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref
If the player isn't replaced in time, a team technical foul can be charged.

Really? Rule 10-5-3PENALTY says that you charge the head coach with a direct "T".. It doesn't say that you can't do that just because he's already been tossed. Soooooo......charge the head coach with the "T" even though he's in the dressing room.

That makes at least as much sense as not letting an assistant coach assume head coach duties, and you've got way more rules language to back it up too.

jer166 Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
I'm curious. Has this policy improved HC behavior? Or has it only made officials more reluctant to toss the coach, thus empowering HC's to behave ever more badly?

I think a little of both. It has been my experience that most officials are reluctant to toss a coach UNLESS the behavior is so bad it can't be overlooked. However it happens several times a year and the coach is also suspended for the next game.

jer166 Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
So if three players dunk during pre-game (and KSRef07 isn't on the floor), then the game results in a forfeit?

Yep. Around here it is called. The big cat & mouse game is the players wait until the officials are tied up with the captains & coaches for their pregame. We had one caught in the state quarterfinal game. Started the game -2, +1, coach seat belted to the bench. :eek:

Adam Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jer166
Yep. Around here it is called. The big cat & mouse game is the players wait until the officials are tied up with the captains & coaches for their pregame. We had one caught in the state quarterfinal game. Started the game -2, +1, coach seat belted to the bench. :eek:

Someone should tell these players they're not in sasnaK anymore.

jer166 Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Someone should tell these players they're not in sasnaK anymore.

That's my position, but not my decision. We got caught because there are 3 official crews in our playoffs & 2 in almost all of our other games.

Nevadaref Sat Oct 27, 2007 02:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Really? Rule 10-5-3PENALTY says that you charge the head coach with a direct "T".. It doesn't say that you can't do that just because he's already been tossed. Soooooo......charge the head coach with the "T" even though he's in the dressing room.

That makes at least as much sense as not letting an assistant coach assume head coach duties, and you've got way more rules language to back it up too.

I think that you make a good point.


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