Speaking of Visible Counts..Part 2
 

You are lead in a 3 person game. The ball is passed into the low post. You, as Lead, square up to accept the play. Player A starts dribbling with his/her back to the basket. Defender B is within 6 feet, both feet on the floor, facing the dribbler. Does the Lead start a 5 second closely guarded count?

I've heard yes the Lead does, and no the Lead doesn't. I've heard if the Lead does start a count, it's a clear signal to the Trail to go off-ball (which the trail should be once the Lead goes on-ball). I've also heard the Trail should be counting (therefore, on-ball) so the Lead can concentrate on the paint.

Thoughts...opinions??

In NFHS and NCAA-Men, the lead does not visibly count the play you've described above or any other situation that might occur.

NCAA-Women may have different mechanics...someone who works NCAA-Women will post shortly, no doubt.

Lead officials in the pure mechanics of NF and NCAA Men's do not have the lead do this. Maybe a supervisor or assignor has a different opinion, but I have never been told by anyone in any decision making situation that this is a good idea. The Lead in a 3 Person is supposed to be watching post play, not counting this kind of violation.

Peace

I do not have 3-person mechanics down by any means so let me make sure I understand what you are saying. You are only stating that the Lead does not "visibly show" a closely guarded count, but he is responsible for it? Or are you saying he is not responsible for it and never counts a closely guarded?

I will take it a step further. If you read the CCA Men's Mechanics book on page 103 (under Section 20: Counting), Article 3 addresses 5 second counting. There is a diagram that divides the court for the Center and Trail officials (only) and their counting responsibilities.

So the answer is only the C and T does the counts for 5 second counting in Men's basketball. My state does not use the NF books anymore, but the books used to have a similar diagram in the book. I know that it is not taught where I live to ever have the Lead count. As a matter of fact a camper was told not to at all during a camp I attended this past summer.

Peace

In NCAA-M, the Lead is not responsible for the 5-second closely guarded count. The Trail will visibly count and make the call if the violation occurs.

I thought that in NFHS, the Lead took the count. But since others have said this is not correct, I guess I could be wrong about that.

The NFHS official's manual for a crew of three officials used to say, "Each official has an area of primary coverage for fouls and violations on and off the ball in that area." Sounds to me like they want the Lead to take violations in the Lead's primary area.

That was a few years ago, though, and I don't have a current NFHS manual.

That is a stretch if you ask me. Also one of the problems with the NF Official's Manual is it is not very detailed. But unless someone tells you do, you should not be counting from the Lead position. For one the ball is not there very long. A count likely started outside of the Lead's area. And the Lead's primary is mostly for post players. If the ball is in the Lead's primary, chances are they are also watching the ball or other players around the ball. Of course, if you insist do it that way. I think it looks silly and is not a very good practice.

Peace

I agree completely. But this was a statement made directly about responsibility for violations.

This is also true. But all it means is that the Trail may have a violation before the Lead gets to 5.

This is NOT true in NFHS mechanics. The Lead is responsible for everything below the free throw line extended and inside the 3-point arc and half the lane. That certainly includes the post players, but the Lead's area includes the 18' jump shot from the endline. You could certainly have a 5-second violation in all that space.

I'm not going to agree or disagree. I was merely trying to point out the NFHS mechanic, based on the information that I have at hand.

In NCAA-W, if the ball is in the L's primary, then the L has responsibility for the 5-sec. count.

I have been told many times by various veteren officials that in NFHS, the L never has a 5-sec. count, but I have never been able to find that specified in the mechanics manual. The same veteren officials have never been able to tell me who does have the count, if the ball is on the low block, directly in front of the L. Does the T have the count, while the L watches for fouls and violations? Do we really have 2 sets of eyes on-ball? Who's watching T's area? The only answer I've been able to receive is, "A 5-sec. call never happens in that spot, so don't worry about it." So, when I work with them, I guess I don't worry about it. :eek:

I know of not a single official that works for the NF. I do not get my license for the NF. My state does not even hand out the NF Official's Manual anymore because in general they do not use the NF's position on all mechanics. And in the position I am currently in, this is not taught at all by clinicians state wide unless they are ignoring IHSA Mechanics. You are not from my state, but I can only speak to what I know.

Which is another reason the Lead does not need a count. ;)

Once again you are focused on NF Mechanics which has already been proven many times on this board mean nothing if states do not want to follow them. Hence the conversation we had about Louisiana and their "no flex" 3 Person Mechanics. The NF only gives a mechanics book to help standardize mechanics if there is no mechanic from individual states or organizations.

I have no problem with references to NF Mechanics. But understand it may not mean anything if you live in a place that does not interpret those mechanics the same way. I do not think that statement you quoted applies across the board and for every type of situation. The point of that statement is to say that each official can call fouls and violations. There are still things that each official is going to do based on other factors.

Peace

Please understand that I am not trying to beat a dead horse or to start a fight on this. I am merely responding to those who posted before me in this thread.

Jeff said:

And then you yourself said:

I think both those statements are false. If I'm wrong, I apologize. If the original poster lives in a state that doesn't care about NFHS mechanics, that's fine. I'm simply trying to point out to anyone who might care about the NFHS mechanic that the NFHS does seem to want the Lead to count for this violation.

In the 2007-09 NFHS Officials Manual, this is a point of emphasis:

0.1.5 Lead Count (Crew of Three): When the ball drops below the free-throw line extended on the Lead's side of the court, the Lead's main responsibility is to watch the post players on the low block. When the ball is moved into the low block and a new closely-guarded count should begin, the Lead signals the count. Too often, the Trail officials begins a new count when the Lead official is still responsible.

So according to the Fed, the lead does indeed count, barring any state exceptions.

Glad I can actually contribute, I mostly learn from lurking you guys!

Thanks, I was going to look it up when I got home. But I will also check with our association on Wednesday. Good discussion gents... :)

The facts are that the Lead has the count in NCAA_W and NFHS, but not in NCAA_M, if one goes strictly by the book.

We are on a discussion board right? We do discuss issues like this right? I do not consider it a fight when someone makes a valid point which I feel you are, but in my opinion might not be completely correct. That is why we are here I hope. ;)


You say this as if everything is addressed in great detail in the NF Mechanics book. If you have not noticed, there are a lot of things that are not even touched on at all. And to take one statement and imply is must me that is a little irresponsible to me. The NF does not cover how we change a 3 point shot to a 2. The NF does not cover how we change an out of bounds call. The NF does not even address directly when to make a call across the lane or in the lane (which can vary based on situation). You cannot take one statement and apply it to all situations when 3 Person is a fluid system that changes constantly. And unless he heard it is OK to do that with the people he works for, I would caution him on thinking this is OK. I do often qualify my statements with answers that might not apply to the NF directly, since the NF does not run camps in most states and the NF leaves a lot of things on purpose to state representatives. Then again, you do whatever you think works for you Scrappy. But if you work in my state and you do this, it will not result in good evaluations. I can guarantee that one. ;)

Peace

That is indeed why I'm here, too. Thank you for taking my comments the way I intended them.

I didn't mean to do that. I was just trying to state what I thought the book was saying. Fortunately, someone else has posted a more "authoritative" quote from the NFHS.

NCAA-W there is no 5 second count on a dribble. Also, distance must be 3 feet or less and the dribbler must be holding the ball to start your 5 second count.

The closely guarded count can be conducted in the BC as well as the FC.

Good catch.

I am glad too. And that is why the IHSA does not use their books. That is a terrible mechanic and I have never taught that or been taught that. I am glad I do not have to follow it.

Peace

Are you sure about that? ;)

They'd better! If they don't (;) ), then they can consult me and I'll advise them on the procedure that I've used.

My take:

1) If you're "on the ball", you should have any needed counts.

2) "Not being taught to do" something is not the same as "Being taught not to do" something

3) Too many people hear "The facts of the game (as Jeff listed) mean that the lead 'never' has this call" and interpret it as "The lead need not use this mechanic."

4) The lead's area in a three-person game is 80% (SWAG) of the lead's area in a two-person game. If the lead counts in a two-person game, why not count in a three-person game?

5) The count *can* be part of crew communication -- telling T that L now has the ball and T should go off-ball.

IMO, it should be used (when appropriate). I use it and have not been told to stop.

Well the Head Clinician and Rules Interpreter does not condone the use. And I was on a game during his camp this summer when he told someone to not count from the Lead (one of my partners counted).

And considering that we do not use the NF book anymore (you will not get them anymore through the IHSA for a reason) I do not want to use something that is not on the PowerPoint. No where on the PowerPoint does it suggest the Lead ever give a count.

Peace

Reading this...

Yet from the recent shot clock thread...

Sounds like a bipolar relationship they have over there.... :D

/Yes I know the difference between hard and fast rules and fluid mechanics....

// By the way, I agree with your stance, neither my association nor camp system has ever suggested the lead should have a closely guarded count. Regional restrictions apply.

/// See Mark P. I can have sense of humor, and I don't need meds either. :D

//// Are slashies acceptable here?

Edit: spelling

Complying with a rule and complying with a mechanic is not the same thing. And the NF does not even try to preach or require compliance with their mechanics. I asked that very question of Mary Struckoff in person when she was giving a Presentation about the NF Online Class about 2 or 3 years ago. She made it clear the NF does not really care what a state does and gave a couple of examples of how it did not matter what a state did. Even rules interpretations are supposed to go through states first and filter to the national level. Even some rules can have interpretations that might not be clarified nationally.

Peace

I brought it up because, in fact, the NFHS did specify a procedure for this.

I just want to clarify information that I received confirmation (or confirm) yesterday at a clinic I was acting as a clinician.

The IHSA does not want the Lead official to ever have a closely-guarded count. What other states might do is likely different. This information came from a Rules Interpreter who is also a Certified Clinician that ran a clinic I attended on Sunday. This was emphasized as a clear difference from the NF.

Peace