Change the call?

[Mark Dexter]

I know the philosophy many of you guys have is that if a partner comes over to "ask" you about a call, he must have enough info, so you change it. What about this situation?

A1 is holding the ball right outside the post by the endline in their frontcourt. B1 comes in, slaps the ball, ball clearly hits off of A1 and OOB. I whistle - call out B's color.

My partner (at trail) shouts that it's A's ball as it tipped off of B. He then comes over and tells me as such. I reply that I clearly saw the "slap" by B then the touching by A, shouted out B's color, pointed, and put the ball into play.

Do you change this when he comes in or not? (Unfortunately running clock, so no discussion or postgame.)

[Mark Dexter]

BTW, I only had 1 T tonight, and that was for an excess timeout!!!

[RX Ref]

I think your partner was wrong in shouting out his call. If he thought he saw somrthing, he should've told you and let you change it- did you get ant grirf for having 2 different calls??

[JRutledge]

It should not be set in stone whether you make a change or not. You might have seen something that they did not. The information alone might not tell you anything you did not already know, but might not include the "whole" play.

This is why your partner should only come to you and tell you what he or she saw, not make the call for you.

Peace

[Rev.Ref63]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter
[B]I clearly saw the "slap" by B then the touching by A, shouted out B's color, pointed, and put the ball into play.

Do you change this when he comes in or not? (Unfortunately running clock, so no discussion or postgame.)

IMO, you would not change the call for the simple fact that you saw the play clearly.

I had a very similar sitch in a very close 8th grade game. I called an OOB on the endline and called the visiting team color "black". The crowd went nuts. The home coach was yelling. My partner came in and asked, "Are you sure of your call?" I told him I was very sure so he said, "That's all I need, let's play." He was just making sure I was sure.
I would have trouble changing a call that was in my primary that I saw clearly.

You did the right thing IMO.

[BktBallRef]

Mark, in this situation an official should never yell to another official that the ball went off a different play. The official should go to his partner and quietly ask, "Did you see A1 hit the ball?" The calling official can then make a decision on whether he was right or his partner was right. But ultimately, it's the calling official's call to change or stick with.

[Chin Ref]

Mark, I think your partner should not have seen what happened with A1 & B1. He should be busy watching the other 8 players.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Chin Ref
Mark, I think your partner should not have seen what happened with A1 & B1. He should be busy watching the other 8 players.

That's what I thought, too . . .

[zebraman]

Here's what I say in my pre-game that might help:

"We will never overrule our partner's call. If you want help, beckon me over and I will tell you what I saw..it's then up to you to use it as you wish."

"If I make a call and then think I might have kicked it, I will wave you over and you tell me what you saw."

Z

[bigwhistle]

When I pregame this situation, this is the tact that I take with the crew that I am working with that night.

If you feel that the call needs to be changed, DO NOT BLOW YOUR WHISTLE! Come toward me with a raised hand (indicating do not start clock). If I made the call for a specific reason (i.e. the ball was off of A1 but B1 probably made enough contact for a foul to be called but I passed on it, opting to just give the ball OOB to the team that deserved it), I will give the partner the Stop Sign.

If I allow him to come to me with info, as JRut properly desribed it above, I will always change the call, since he would not have come to me if he was not 120% sure that I did not see what happened. Many times this will involve a pass that was tipped just after leaving the hand of the passer in my partner's primary which I did not see.

The reason that the partner should not blow his whistle is that the whistle will now draw the attention of everyone in the gym to him. Once this happens, the call needs to be changed, or the credibility of the crew starts to deteriorate in the minds of many. Before the ball is ever put in play, we should always find our partners to make sure they are ready. Because of this, his approaching with a raised arm tells me something that I did not know about happened.

As BBRef stated, the official making the initial call should be the one to change the call if it is to be changed.

[Don in MN]

Had a similar situation in a recent game.

I'm trail working the backcourt on a press. Lead is in good position to watch the play to help me out, since most of the players are in the vicinity of the ball (this wasn't great basketball, needless to say).

Team A works ball to a corner near midcourt and there's a tieup. I'm slightly behind the play, but closer than the lead, though lead probably has a better angle to see the play. We both blow whistles at the same time. My mistake was instantly calling a foul on Team B for grabbing the arm, while lead calls a held ball. We confer and both agree that lead had the better angle to see the whole play and call the held ball.

It never feels good to change a call, and I'll admit that I didn't use the best mechanics, but I feel we got the call right.

[williebfree]

We all get a knot in our stomache when we realize we need change our call. However, I also feel our duty to "get it right" should superceed any ego we may bring to the court.

In a game between bitter cross-town rivals, I had a situation which forced me to get help. Early in the second half, A1 threw a hard pass toward A2, near the sideline. B1(White) deflected the pass prior to it whizzing past A2. A2's body screened my vision, but I was confident that A2 did NOT touch the ball before it went OOB. I whistle (hand signal violation, followed by a directional point) and then with a drill-sargeant voice, "Green!" There were moans and boos from the bleachers in the area of the violation.

My partner hustled over and confirmed that Green 12 touched the ball. OK....with a drill-sargeant voice, "White!"

There was a smattering of cheers and soft claps.

As I prepared to administer the ball for the throw-in, I hear one fan (3 rows behind me) say to the other.... "I can't believe I just saw that! An official who admitted he made a mistake. I am impressed!"

I just turned to see who it was and gave him a smile... "Here we go... play ball!"

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I know the philosophy many of you guys have is that if a partner comes over to "ask" you about a call, he must have enough info, so you change it.

Mark,
I think you did it right.
Although I subscribe to - "If you wanna change my call then we will", we know that not all partners are equal, and particularly at the college intramural level where the refs are still getting their Fox wet.
mick

[Mark Padgett]

I appreciate a partner who comes over in a helpful manner when he (or she, Juulie) thinks I was screened or otherwise not able to get a great look at a play and he was. I will discuss it and if he says he definitely saw it the other way and I know I didn't get a good look, I will not hesitate to change it. However, I really do this almost exclusively on violations, not fouls.

Of course, this is a completely different situation than a partner consistently calling in your area. If he does that, or tries to "showboat" that he thinks I made a wrong call, we're going to have the "short talk".

[williebfree]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett
However, I really do this almost exclusively on violations, not fouls.


I agree.


Of course, this is a completely different situation than a partner consistently calling in your area. If he does that, or tries to "showboat" that he thinks I made a wrong call, we're going to have the "short talk".

And the content of that "short talk" would be?