I wanted to start this thread to get your opinions out there. Earlier this week I officiated a game with a coach who has serious anger management problems. Not with the officials mind you, but with his players. I have officiated him in the past and it has always been the same. The level is a high school boys varsity game. Not only is he the head coach be he is also the principle of the High School.

IMO I feel that this is well over the edge on verbal "child" abuse. I looked over at him at the start of the game and his whole countence changed within the first few seconds from the first play.

The coach is very careful to just brush the edge of the line when boardering a technical. But when his players make a mistake, overshoot, commit a violation, He EXPLODES at them. I don't know how the parents can stand what he does.

My partner after the game commented that he thinks that he is playing a mind game with the officals to not want to call something for fear of his players getting blasted. I think there are serious issues. In his time out huddles you can hear the foul language, the berating and belittling of his players. But it is not loud enough that you "should" hear it.

I contemplated reporting him to Social Services. Because I know it has been reported to the state High School Activites Association and nothing was done.

Any suggestions?

I'd definitely write letters to the athletic director, principal and superintendent, being very specific about what you observed in your role as an impartial game official.

Social Services? Maybe, especially if there is evidence of extreme verbal, emotional or physical abuse. The devil's advocate in me says that since basketball is an extracurricular activity and not required, that a child can withdraw from the activity, but on the flip side, no child deserves to be abused in the ways you have described.

Spaman,
I had a Coach like that about 7 years ago, and I found his actions to be too unsporting, to his players, to the point that I went to him during a dead ball and called him out where I quietly said, "Coach you are almost over the edge."
He told me, and I beleived him, that he was merely yelling at his players.
"I know, Coach. But I am becoming offended."
Seven years later and two or three games with him a year, and he has never approached my line while I am on the floor.
mick

this is a bad situation for all involved. i think you should just work your game. Do the job you were hired to do and let lifes problems take care of its self.

This is one thing I will not tolerate! I try to penalize this early and consistently in H.S. ball, although some say this is an extracurricular activity it is still an extension
of the classroom and should be treated accordingly. The biggest obstacle to clearing this up is the officials. To many officials will look the other way at this behavior which is neither academic or professional, which is what all of us should expect from anyone charged with teaching our children. If a math teacher stood in his classroom
and said the same things would he be allowed to keep his job? Then niether should this jerk.

Leave this alone.
 

I think we have no place trying to get involved during the game. This is a school issue. This is an administrative issue. What you think is abusive, others might see as a coach that cares. And personally I am not of the camp that there really is such a thing as "verbal" abuse. Not because you cannot hurt someone's feelings, but what others say really should not affect the way you think.

I think if you get involved, you might not like the consequences that might come onto you indirectly or directly for making such a claim. I think parents and teachers are in a better position to make these claims. At least they are more tied to the situation than you are. Remember, you are really on the outside looking in. Not a very good view if you ask me.

Peace

Have any of the parents complained about his behavior? I live in a state where reporting of child abuse is mandatory for certain occupations such as physicians, nurses, teachers, ministers and any person that deals with children on a professional level. A case can be made for officials being mandatory reporters as well. After all, we do work closely with children on a professional level. My question is why haven't the parents done anything about it? If that went on here in Oregon, and you thought it could be construed as abuse then reporting is mandatory. If there were teachers present and observed this behavior they would have to report it or face prosecution themselves for not reporting it.

Blow the whistle thats what we get paid for, to enforce the standard (rule) by doing this we do send a valuable message
to the kids and parents remember treason didn't start in Afghanistan. It began in Marin County, with parents who never said "No."

What rules are we going to enforce? Are we going to give a T and penalize the kids for the actions of a coach against the kids? What in the world is that going to do?

And not only is this not make sense to me, what are you going to base this on? Are we only going to look at the use of profanity? What if the coach yells at a kid for doing something that the coach feels was not good judgement, are we going to say that is abuse?

I guess I look at this. You are treading down a slippery sloop in my opinion. I see many coaches do what was suggested, and did not hear any foul language or see them touch the players. Sometimes I feel that coaches need to yell to get a point across. And I have seen coaches do this to stop their players from fighting or talking to the officials in a disrespectful way. Are we going to T a coach for that? :eek:

As officials we cannot agree on when and if we should call things like 3 seconds. We have a rule that is clear in many ways, and you want people to take it upon themselves and hand out punishment that is going to hurt the kids in more ways than one. It is not like you can give a T and then give the ball back to the players of the coach you just T'd or ejected. Not seeing the point here. But I guess this is not the first time for that. :)

Peace

I agree with PAULK1; if his conduct is unsporting, then T him. It is an important message at HS level, see page 9 of the Case Book, 2.8.1 COMMENT, esp. the last sentence.

Personally, I wouldn't report him to child services unless I saw or heard something truly extreme (any physical abuse would qualify).

[Edited by Slider on Jan 26th, 2002 at 12:44 AM]

I never thought I'd see the day but I have to agree with Rut on this one!
We can't force coaches to coach in a manner we approve of or Bobby Knight would have been out of D1 basketball years ago. It's up to the Administration to handle this type of problem. Parents etc should be the first to complain. When the coach does something that warrants official intervention then , of course , the official must intervene, however unless the coach physically abuses a player, then it is a very difficult interpretation on how the coach may be motivating his/her players- IMHO LEAVE IT ALONE!
Pistol

I never thought I'd see the day but I have to agree with Rut on this one!
We can't force coaches to coach in a manner we approve of or Bobby Knight would have been out of D1 basketball years ago. It's up to the Administration to handle this type of problem. Parents etc should be the first to complain. When the coach does something that warrants official intervention then , of course , the official must intervene, however unless the coach physically abuses a player, then it is a very difficult interpretation on how the coach may be motivating his/her players- IMHO LEAVE IT ALONE!
Pistol

I understand the reluctance to T; the language would have to be quite evil or vile before I would T.

WOW!!!!
 

If this is the first time, then you are going to have a problem with a lot of officials. Because almost everything that I have discussed on this board, has been the ideals of many more officials than myself. I do not reinvent the wheel, I just drive it.

Peace

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM

So let me get this... Its ok for the coach to scream at jimmy, G*& D*&^ jimmy you better block his A&& out next play or your on the F#$%# bench for all to hear during the TO and this is considered motivation and not unsportsman like but the other coach who steps a millimeter out of the box to say thats a horrible call is rung up immediately!
What a sad commentary on our game.

I agree with your assessment. It's like we have a double standard here. My point is that I would like to see the parents step forward in this situation. If I were a parent of one of the players and I felt that a coach was abusive I would do something about it. In the situation mentioned I believe that the coach was the principal of the school as well. Going to the principal is not an option here. Maybe this guy is on some kind of power trip and likes to rule with an iron fist. Maybe the threat of going to childrens services would tone it down a bit. There is more to abuse than physical abuse. If my 4 year old were sitting with me in the stands and heard profanity and other abusive behavior directed toward children, I would be extremely ticked.

Maybe the parents are waiting for the officials to act, everybody is waiting for everybody.

If his language is really over-the-top (guess that's in the ear of the beholder, but we are paid to judge); then issue a T, just like 2.8.1 COMMENT says we should.

The T's will change his behavior, at least in your games.

"And personally I am not of the camp that there really is such a thing as "verbal" abuse."

Were you raised in a Monastery?

Bob

What a great idea.
 

Great, let them have us call a T on their team that makes them lose. Really good use of your power. Now who is on the power trip. They will not blame the coach, they will blame you. Leave this SH!T alone please!!!!

To some of you the usage of "Jesus Christ" is over the top, let us really use better judgement than that.

Peace

I'm not looking for T's, I'm just trying to follow the guidance given to me from NFHS; its called the Rules/Cases.

I can't understand why an person would go into a profession (officiating) which is all about administering rules and penalizing other people for breaking rules, and then wants to ignore rules himself.

But, that is neither here nor there.

I would guess that 95% of the officials here would T a player who goes into a profanity laced yelling rage on the court--no matter who he is yelling at.

Apply the same standard to the coach--he is supposed to be a professional and follow good standards of behavior that his players will emulate.

Do what you want but..........
 

For general rules knowledge and application really come from the casebook. I see nothing in the casebook that suggests what you claim. A coach and a player are two different levels. A coach is an adult, a player is not (at least at the HS level). Whether you realize it or not, you behavior better be different towards both.

Look, I am not a social worker. I did not become an official to save children from coaches. And I do not consider it unsportsmanlike for a coach to get on a player.

You go ahead and do that, do not be surprised if it is you in the end that takes the fall. Remember, you are going to give the other team 2 shots and the ball for giving this kind of T. So while you made a point to the coach, you hurt the kids and changed the momentum or lack there of by doing what you feel is "right." You might have to do more than T the coach to get you out of that mess.

It might be a rule, but you have to use common sense. Neither is it come, or does it make sense. Talk to the school board if it makes you feel better. Do not hurt the kids twice by your actions.

Peace

Just my opinion, but the comment that foul language was overheard by the refs, whether or not it was "intended" to be heard, would be enough for me to either warn the coach, or T him up right away. We don't accept foul language from the kids, and certainly shoulnd't allow it to be used during the game (timeouts and quarters included) by the adults responsible for them. We penalize a kid for swearing at themselves (or we should be, since it is an extention of the classroom, and as a teacher also, I do this in the classroom as well as outside as a sports official), and the adults are supposed to be held to a higher standard.

Re: Do what you want but..........
 

What about 2.8.1 COMMENT, on page 9, especially the last sentence? Can it be any clearer than that?

I think what some of us are struggling with is the orignal post. Hear foul language( maybe needs to be more specific). He also says not loud enough we "should" hear. He can't be yelling in his huddle. I have heard a coach say D@m in huddle and i never considerd giving a T. Some of the other replies are indicating this guy is yelling curse words left and right. I didn't read this in his post.

And I am only pointing out that there is a threshold that earns a T.

Re: Re: Do what you want but..........
 

Doesn't that deal with spectators? Maybe I'm missing the key sentence.

Re: Re: Re: Do what you want but..........
 

bob, there are COMMENTS and then there are Comments :). 2.8.1 COMMENT is on page 9, it is the very first "situation" under UNSPORTING BEHAVIOR.

I, too, am of the sentiment that you have to leave this alone. Obviously his behavior has been observed and noted by somebody above him, the school's A.D. or higher. If he is being allowed to coach after passing this scrutiny then I do not see how we as officials can do anything here. If I am unfortunate enough to work a game with this type of coach I tell the players to relax, lhave some fun because that is what they are supposed to do and that is exactly what I am going to do.

Re: Re: Do what you want but..........
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slider

Quote:

What about 2.8.1 COMMENT, on page 9, especially the last sentence? Can it be any clearer than that?

See the problem is, you see it as UNSPORTING to yell at the kids by a coach. I personally do not.

The use of "foul language" has nothing to do with being unsporting itself. You can do other things and not open your mouth and get a T. So what the heck are you so focused on the language for?

If you want to go ahead a T everyone for saying something that you and only you hear, then do that. You have the right if you choose. I think you are wrong and I think that the rulebook and the casebook does not support it. My question to you is why do you not let the school handle those things. They do all the time. It is not like we are the one's kids they are yelling at, or they are not representing us at this game.

Foul language and the use of it is very overrated to me. If I got upset or tried to give T for every single time I heard it, I would not have players on the floor and fans in the stands. This is not church or worship time. This is a sport where emotions off all kinds come out in the heat of it. I am not condoning anything, but I am not going to penalize a kid or coach just because they use a word that might be profane. And if that is the case, it would be very difficult to officiate anything.

I think there are much bigger fish to fry. But then again, that is my opinion. I think this is an area thing. If you were to do that in many circles, you would be doing rec. ball. And you could not even do rec. ball because the language all the way around can be bad.

Peace

PS. The COMMENTS talk about profanity, not abuse. It is not my job to judge what is abusive, when you do not have to use profanity to be abusive. But then again, I am not a social worker and I am not going to give Ts that will hurt the kids and the blame of losing is going to be on my shoulders. If I deam it necessary, I can right a report to the state, but I would not even do that. I have been around enough coaches that got in trouble for their actions and I was not anywhere around to report it. Find something else to get upset by. :)





[Edited by JRutledge on Jan 28th, 2002 at 12:55 PM]

I can't resist putting my 2-cents worth in here. Coaches yell at their kids. (I yell at mine sometimes!) Sometimes that's the way to get their attention, especially if you only have 30 or 60 seconds to do it!

The questions that need to be addressed here is whether or not profanity constitutes unsportsmanlike behavior and whether or not we have jurisdiction while teams are in a huddle.

The latter question is definitely true. Bench personnel and players are within our jurisdiction during the game. In fact, if a team is using a VCR in the lockerroom at half time to review plays, we can go in and T them up for that! (NFHS)

Is profanity from the coach unsportsmanlike. It's definitely unsportsmanlike from the players. (10.3.8.b) Bench staff are also clearly prohibited from profanity. (10.4.1.c) Regrettfully, there is less clarity regarding the head coach's behavior. However, the rules book is clear in its stance on profanity, and the stance is that there is no place for it in the game of basketball. Would stopping the coach from using profane language improve the game? <b>Absolutely!</b>

Is this a common sense approach? Even though Rut may disagree, it is. This type of activity degrades the game, offends most, <i>and</i> violates the rules. For me, zero tolerance.

BTW, in response to another post in this thread, I've agreed with Rut more than once. This just doesn't happen to be one of those times! ;-)

There is more than one way to skin a cat!!!
 

If a player or coach is using language to themselves, to a teammate or under their breath, I am not giving T just because I heard it. Now I might say something if I know it was them or I can pick them out, but I am not giving a T if that is among teammates.

Look, the common sense thing to do is to give a T when it makes the game better. I personally do not understand how a kid saying something under his breath or a coach talking to his kids is going to make the game better. I will give Ts to kids if they say the wrong thing to opponents any day, and not a word of profanity necessarily had to come out of their mouth.

I guess the thing I am not stuck on is profanity. And considering that profanity or what is considered as profane is different from where you live and the community that surrounds it. Some people think if you say, "that pisses me off," you have violated some profanity law.

And you are not going to make the game better if all you worry about is language. Because if you think this world does not have language that these kid are going to here or be exposed to, then I guess you live in a different environment than I do.

I personally have more problems with kids complaining to me every time I call something and being demonstrative about it than what comes out of their mouths.

But there is more than one way to the mountain top, and mine route does not have to match yours.

And as it relates to abusive behavior by a coach, that is there thing. It is not my job to save the world as an official, I will not. I will be the bad guy instead of the coach or administrators that sees much more of the situation than I ever will watching one game.

Peace

It is easy to see that the standards that we allow to happen have eroded severely over time. And don't give me the line that it is the environment in which we live. If you have an opportunity to fix a problem and don't do it, then you are not only avoiding the solution, you are a part of the problem.

Allow the profanity loud enough to offend someone and don't penalize it.....TELL ME WHAT MESSAGE YOU ARE SENDING!

So now the player in a real life situation that matters, i.e. at the job or in the classroom, comes out with the language and gets suspended or loses a job.......WELL DONE!!!!!! We will have done OUR part to mold this young man or woman.

Who cares, I am not saying the world.
 

I DO NOT CARE WHAT MESSAGE IS BEING SENT. You think that kids are cursing all over the place. I hope you are more intellegent than that?

And depending on the teacher and the sitauation, not all kids are going to get suspended or teachers are not going to lose their jobs for saying one profane comment. Sorry, but it does not happen that way.

The problem with "zero tolerance" is it comes with zero thinking. There are slang terms that are much harsher than what you might say is typically profane. And those might catch my attention much more than a kid that curses under his breath to himself after blowing a play. And if you are not aware of those terms, you might find yourself having a double standard.

Do what you want, do what you feel is right, I will do the same. AND I AM NOT GIVING A T FOR WHAT SOMEONE THINKS IS ABUSE. That would be the dumbest thing to do in my opinion.

Just a suggestion. Don't take anymore games there. When the AD asks you why you deny a contract, tell him up front that you do not agree with the way the coach handles his players. Let the school and administration handle this problem. Not you. Remember, what goes around, comes around.

Here's my thoughts on this thread (in case anyone cares).

Firstly, Australia is a lot more laid back when it comes to "political correctness" - this may or may not be a good thing, but it is a fact. This attitude flows over onto the basketball court, and I would imagine that, as a generalisation, most Australian referee's have a more relaxed attitude towards "foul" language than the average North American.

Secondly, I believe that it is the job of the referees to enforce the rules, not the quality of coaching. I am a referee, coach, player and administrator of basketball, and I've been around the sport for a while. Some of the teams and players that I ave coached in the past have responded best to being yelled at. Others have needed reassurance and positive re-inforcement. I have a degree in psychology, and it is a well known fact that different people respond to stimuli in different ways. I feel that it is up to the coach to determine which is the best way of getting the most out of his team - whether he uses "great job Johnny", or "Pull your damn finger out, you wimp" is up to the coach (and maybe the administration).

Having said that, if a coach starts using clearly audible, "foul" language, I'll be the first person to T them up. But if their language is loud, confrontational, agressive, or demeaning without swearing - that's their perogative.

You might not agree with the coaching methods, but you can't T them for that - would you T a coach for unsportsmanlike behaviour for playing a zone when you think they should be in man?

Phew....I'm done!

Re: Re: Re: Do what you want but..........
 

The origianl post in this thread talked about foul language coming from his huddles, so there apparently was profanity. Do what you want Rut, enforce only the rules you like.

Wrong vocation for you my friend.
 

Why are you so close to the huddle that you can hear what is being said about anything? And if you are so close, are you going to give the coach a T if they are talking
about you and do not use any profanity calling you names? What if the coach is getting personal about you but talking to his players and not you?

Are you going to apply rule 4-1a and give Ts everytime a coach is not talking to you and to his players in the huddle?

Rule 4-1b happens every game, but you do not see me giving Ts because a coach tries to tell me what happen, trying to get me to chance the way I call the game.

If that is the way you want to be an official, then I guess you will not be moving up too much. You better use more common sense than that.

You go right ahead and do that crap and you might not be close enough to any other huddles to give a T the next time. Unless it is a rec. game. ;)

Multiple fouls are in the rulebook, but I will be damned (profanity I should get a T :)) if I am going to call one anytime soon either.

Peace

Rut--I'll try not to drag this out much longer. Just one comment and one confession:

<b>Why are you so close to the huddle that you can hear what is being said about anything? And if you are so close, are you going to give the coach a T if they are talking
about you and do not use any profanity calling you names? What if the coach is getting personal about you but talking to his players and not you?</b>

First of all, I've never heard anything out of line in a huddle, so all of this, for me, is speculation. However, I'm close to the huddle while reporting the TO, if I'm passing information to the coaches ("Only 1 TO left, coach."), <i>and</i> if I'm getting the team out of the huddle when the TO is over. And sometimes you can not only hear the coaches from anywhere on the court, but also from the diner down the street!

If I heard the coach get personal about me to his players? Yep, I'd ring him up fast. If he's dumb enough to do that when I can hear, he deserves it!

Okay, the confession. Last night, I filled in for a 6th grade boy's game. A14 is a skinny, out-of-control kid having a rough night. He gets knocked to the floor--again. Barely audible, while I'm next to him, I hear "Shi..." He sees me before the 't' comes out to finish the word. I let it pass.

In retrospect, I should have either given him the 'T' or talked to him, because he pushed the edge of unsportsmanlike the rest of the game. He needed a lesson, and I missed the opportunity.

As fate would have it, I see these same kids tonight... I'm thinking I'll start with a captain's meeting!

Two years ago, a Louisiana Boys high school coach/AD kicked a player during a game. Charges were filed and he was dropped from the school payroll. He was picked up by another school last year and coaches again at the same level.

This year, now in Illinois (I moved) another coach crossed the line. During practice, he had the kids remove their jersies and walk around in skivies because they weren't worthy of wearing the school colors.

In both cases, the kids are the ones who turned these idiots in by talking to their parrents. Parents called parents and things came to light. It wasn't the super sensitive ref or the concerned school board member sitting behind the bench.

Call the game and address the behavior on the court. We all pretty much know what constitutes language or behavior that crosses the line. Two free throws and the ball out of bounds or the subsequent boot are the only recourses we have. Nothing but the score is approved by us leaving the court in the forth quarter. We don't condone tactics, strategies, or coaching styles, only the score.

There are professional that deal anger, frustration, denial, abuse... We ain't them. Write the letters to the newspapers or school board if you have to but only as as a concerned citizen, not a referee. My two cents...

Not playing with balls
 

I know a coach that was fired at a school because he claimed that the players did not have balls, so he supposebly pulled down his pants (allegedly) and grabbed his balls and told the team "now these are balls."

He was told on by one of the kids and fired later.

Funny, this coach went to another school and became the AD and Boy's Coach and won a State Title later.

Did not take an official to report this, kind of hard when it happens in the locker room.

Peace

Humm it has been interesting to read the comments and suggestions. I do want to add a little bit more that opens the picture up a little bit more. This school is on an army base out in the middle of nowhere. They have a hard enough time getting anyone to teach there let alone coach as well. And the coach used to be the president of the coaches association in the state. Yes there have been complaints, by many officials, parents, and opposing coaches. But nothing has ever been done. You don't hear the language unless you happen to walk by, or at the end when the horn goes off. I am not one that is listening for something to T the coach up for, nor am I quick on the whistle. But I do work at a state hospital and I DO recognize the behavior as a problem. Will I do something more? Hey I don't know but it bothers me nonetheless.

Verbal Abuse
 

First instinct would be to give a T, but it penalizes the players, as many posts have stated. Also, trying to talk to a coach that uses methods of intimidation is only going to make things worse on you. You try to talk to the coach and he does not respond favorably, then you are going to T him. This will look like you baited him into the response.

As a parent, coach & official - I can't imagine just letting the actions go. An option would be to have the school's on-site administrator talk to the coach. Another option is to have game management remove the offender.

I know this is drastic, but it is an option. If you had someone in the gym that was being verbally abusive and using profane language, I'd hope that you'd have them removed from the gym. It does not matter if the person is directing the insults toward the officiating, the other team or a specific player. The coach should not be given special treatment just because he's on the bench.

Many of you will say, 'What about Bobby Knight? You going to have hime removed?'. My comment is directed toward the original post of this being a High School game. College carries different baggage. A high school game is an extension of the classroom (this exact statement is read at the beginning of every game in my area by the announcer). Therefore, proper decorum is expected by all participants. If it is not, then they should be removed - either by the official on the court (fighting, taunting, etc.) or by game management (abusive fans, weapons, etc.).

As a coach, I understand the need to raise your voice or to call out a player. However, as an adult & parent I know when the line is crossed. I'm sure most of you know, too.

This is one of those 'you-have-to-be-there' situations. I'm not sure how I would handle the situation, but I am sure that I'm not going to turn a blind-eye.

bard,
I don't think you had to school him.
He knew better and held up.
I'm glad you didn't "T" him for his thought, it could have been "She(eze).
By the way, I handle the barely audible stuff with something like, "I didn't hear that, and I don't want to hear it again."
mick