I know the philosophy many of you guys have is that if a partner comes over to "ask" you about a call, he must have enough info, so you change it. What about this situation?

A1 is holding the ball right outside the post by the endline in their frontcourt. B1 comes in, slaps the ball, ball clearly hits off of A1 and OOB. I whistle - call out B's color.

My partner (at trail) shouts that it's A's ball as it tipped off of B. He then comes over and tells me as such. I reply that I clearly saw the "slap" by B then the touching by A, shouted out B's color, pointed, and put the ball into play.

Do you change this when he comes in or not? (Unfortunately running clock, so no discussion or postgame.)

BTW, I only had 1 T tonight, and that was for an excess timeout!!! :):):):):)

shouldn't have shouted it out
 

I think your partner was wrong in shouting out his call. If he thought he saw somrthing, he should've told you and let you change it- did you get ant grirf for having 2 different calls??

Information only.
 

It should not be set in stone whether you make a change or not. You might have seen something that they did not. The information alone might not tell you anything you did not already know, but might not include the "whole" play.

This is why your partner should only come to you and tell you what he or she saw, not make the call for you.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Dexter
[B]I clearly saw the "slap" by B then the touching by A, shouted out B's color, pointed, and put the ball into play.

Do you change this when he comes in or not? (Unfortunately running clock, so no discussion or postgame.)

IMO, you would not change the call for the simple fact that you saw the play clearly.

I had a very similar sitch in a very close 8th grade game. I called an OOB on the endline and called the visiting team color "black". The crowd went nuts. The home coach was yelling. My partner came in and asked, "Are you sure of your call?" I told him I was very sure so he said, "That's all I need, let's play." He was just making sure I was sure.
I would have trouble changing a call that was in my primary that I saw clearly.

You did the right thing IMO.

Mark, in this situation an official should never yell to another official that the ball went off a different play. The official should go to his partner and quietly ask, "Did you see A1 hit the ball?" The calling official can then make a decision on whether he was right or his partner was right. But ultimately, it's the calling official's call to change or stick with.

Mark, I think your partner should not have seen what happened with A1 & B1. He should be busy watching the other 8 players.

That's what I thought, too . . . :rolleyes:

Here's what I say in my pre-game that might help:

"We will never overrule our partner's call. If you want help, beckon me over and I will tell you what I saw..it's then up to you to use it as you wish."

"If I make a call and then think I might have kicked it, I will wave you over and you tell me what you saw."

Z

my approach
 

When I pregame this situation, this is the tact that I take with the crew that I am working with that night.

If you feel that the call needs to be changed, DO NOT BLOW YOUR WHISTLE! Come toward me with a raised hand (indicating do not start clock). If I made the call for a specific reason (i.e. the ball was off of A1 but B1 probably made enough contact for a foul to be called but I passed on it, opting to just give the ball OOB to the team that deserved it), I will give the partner the Stop Sign.

If I allow him to come to me with info, as JRut properly desribed it above, I will always change the call, since he would not have come to me if he was not 120% sure that I did not see what happened. Many times this will involve a pass that was tipped just after leaving the hand of the passer in my partner's primary which I did not see.

The reason that the partner should not blow his whistle is that the whistle will now draw the attention of everyone in the gym to him. Once this happens, the call needs to be changed, or the credibility of the crew starts to deteriorate in the minds of many. Before the ball is ever put in play, we should always find our partners to make sure they are ready. Because of this, his approaching with a raised arm tells me something that I did not know about happened.

As BBRef stated, the official making the initial call should be the one to change the call if it is to be changed.

Had a similar situation in a recent game.

I'm trail working the backcourt on a press. Lead is in good position to watch the play to help me out, since most of the players are in the vicinity of the ball (this wasn't great basketball, needless to say).

Team A works ball to a corner near midcourt and there's a tieup. I'm slightly behind the play, but closer than the lead, though lead probably has a better angle to see the play. We both blow whistles at the same time. My mistake was instantly calling a foul on Team B for grabbing the arm, while lead calls a held ball. We confer and both agree that lead had the better angle to see the whole play and call the held ball.

It never feels good to change a call, and I'll admit that I didn't use the best mechanics, but I feel we got the call right.

Welcome aboard DON (in MN)
 

We all get a knot in our stomache when we realize we need change our call. However, I also feel our duty to "get it right" should superceed any ego we may bring to the court.

In a game between bitter cross-town rivals, I had a situation which forced me to get help. Early in the second half, A1 threw a hard pass toward A2, near the sideline. B1(White) deflected the pass prior to it whizzing past A2. A2's body screened my vision, but I was confident that A2 did NOT touch the ball before it went OOB. I whistle (hand signal violation, followed by a directional point) and then with a drill-sargeant voice, "Green!" There were moans and boos from the bleachers in the area of the violation.

My partner hustled over and confirmed that Green 12 touched the ball. OK....with a drill-sargeant voice, "White!"

There was a smattering of cheers and soft claps.

As I prepared to administer the ball for the throw-in, I hear one fan (3 rows behind me) say to the other.... "I can't believe I just saw that! An official who admitted he made a mistake. I am impressed!"

I just turned to see who it was and gave him a smile... "Here we go... play ball!" :)

Mark,
I think you did it right.
Although I subscribe to - "If you wanna change my call then we will", we know that not all partners are equal, and particularly at the college intramural level where the refs are still getting their Fox wet.
mick

I appreciate a partner who comes over in a helpful manner when he (or she, Juulie) thinks I was screened or otherwise not able to get a great look at a play and he was. I will discuss it and if he says he definitely saw it the other way and I know I didn't get a good look, I will not hesitate to change it. However, I really do this almost exclusively on violations, not fouls.

Of course, this is a completely different situation than a partner consistently calling in your area. If he does that, or tries to "showboat" that he thinks I made a wrong call, we're going to have the "short talk".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett
However, I really do this almost exclusively on violations, not fouls.


I agree. :)


Of course, this is a completely different situation than a partner consistently calling in your area. If he does that, or tries to "showboat" that he thinks I made a wrong call, we're going to have the "short talk".

And the content of that "short talk" would be? :D

I work with a guy who has a very colorful vocabulary.
So the ball goess OOB, he calls "Blue" and points. I jog
over and ask "Did you get a good look at it? Maybe I can
help?" He says "You came all the m&^@&@f&chin' way over
here to ask if I need some m&^@&@f&chin' help??!! Sh!t yeah
I need some m&^@&@f&chin' help! White ball! White!"
Well, it was funny at the time.

I'm new to officiating but I'm glad to know the most of these post replies are concerned with getting the right call and not if someone get "showed up". These kind of post make me feel more comfortable to, at leasts, talk to my more experienced partner when I think I see something different.

I like your signature: "Go hard or go home." I once had a girl say that to me in high school. BTW - I didn't go home. ;)

(Insert obligatory Viagra joke here.)

Just a tip, Wiz. Don't go to your partner if you think you saw something. In my pregame, I say "If you come to me, it's b/c you're 100% sure that I got it wrong. If you're not 100% sure, don't come."

Why? Because I don't want to have an NFL-style, 5-minute conference about what you thought you saw and what I thought I saw. If you're sure I missed it, come and tell me what you have. Otherwise, let me live and die with I called.

Chuck

here is just a little different take and i know i might get some grief. I trust my partners. If they start toward me to change a call, I'm changing it. It is a matter of mechanics to come to me. If my changing the call is wrong, then its on my partner. I try not to go to my partner in the 1st half. You don't want two corrections in a game. Those of you who have had that happen know what i am talking about. On a side note, I had a HS game recently where I was a lead, shot right in front of me( my primary), def. in front and back of the shooter, I saw the girl in front foul the shooter on the arm just below the wrist, not hard but cause the shot short. Double whistle, Lead and Trail. I yell 11-white, as i start out to report my partner says 32, I stop and said what did you say ( i didn't understand what he was saying) he said the foul is on 32. SO, i report foul on 32. Now i don't think he should have done that because i know i had a foul on 11, however, its possible the obvious foul might have been on 32, I was watching the girl in front. Again, I trust my partners.

I've had these in flag football.

Not fun.

What do you get when you mix Viagra with Rogain? You get hair like Don King.

Thankfully I've never seen that combination at the pharmacy.

Part II
 

Friday night - 2nd of 4 games.

A is passing the ball around in their frontcourt. I'm at trail, and my partner (lead) blows the whistle when the ball goes off of B and hits the bottom of the backboard. I clearly saw that it hit the bottom, so I went over to try to talk to him about the rule. When I was standing right next to him, he put the ball in play, and then had to blow it dead realizing we needed to talk. Needless to say, the call was not changed.

At the next timeout, all the other staff was reaming me out for trying to get this guy to change the call - saying it "looks bad" (of course, they didn't know that the bottom isn't OOB). So, this sort of thing is bad, but it's fine for the trail official to whistle the OOB on my line at lead. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the venting. Just consider this part 49198471 of why to never work rec ball.

Bart, I agree with your outlook on changing the o.b. call, in trying to not do it in the first half. My philosophy is slightly different but very similar. I view it sort of like the red flag for a challenge in NFL football and only give myself one a game and even then only if I am 110% sure that my partner missed it. Friday night, varsity girls game the ball was poked out of bounds by a girl standing in my area but the ball went out on my partners line. I was sure no one else had touched it and he signalled the other direction. I very quickly decided to let it lie, it was in the first quarter of the game, the first of a double-header and I wanted to save my red flag for a more important time in the game if I needed it. Luckily, I never had to use it. This is not to say that I wouldn't do it twice if I had too, but the situation would have to be extraordinary. See my post on how the rest of my evening turned out, titled, Friday night.