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-   -   Ncaa Poe (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/38525-ncaa-poe.html)

Nevadaref Fri Sep 28, 2007 05:58pm
Ncaa Poe
 
Will this change the philosophy by which some upper level officials have been calling these plays? We'll have to wait and see.


From the 2007-08 NCAA Men's Points of Emphasis
This year, the charge and block situations occurring at the basket area are
the points of emphasis. Any illegal contact that occurs at the basket area by
either the offensive or defensive player (block, charge, player control fouls)
shall be accordingly penalized as prescribed by the rules. Only when the
following occurs shall the penalty not be applied:
1. The force of the contact by the offensive player is such that it is
inconsequential, but the defensive player fakes a foul.
2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)
Although this year’s points of emphasis are concerned with fouls
occurring at the basket area, there are no exceptions to the charge/block
rules as to where the illegal contact occurs on the playing court.

btaylor64 Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
Will this change the philosophy by which some upper level officials have been calling these plays? We'll have to wait and see.


From the 2007-08 NCAA Men's Points of Emphasis
This year, the charge and block situations occurring at the basket area are
the points of emphasis. Any illegal contact that occurs at the basket area by
either the offensive or defensive player (block, charge, player control fouls)
shall be accordingly penalized as prescribed by the rules. Only when the
following occurs shall the penalty not be applied:
1. The force of the contact by the offensive player is such that it is
inconsequential, but the defensive player fakes a foul.
2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)
Although this year’s points of emphasis are concerned with fouls
occurring at the basket area, there are no exceptions to the charge/block
rules as to where the illegal contact occurs on the playing court.
I don't believe it will. The NCAA is just reiterating what the "big dogs" have been doing for years or at least how they have reffed plays to the basket.

Scrapper1 Sat Sep 29, 2007 07:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
I don't believe it will. The NCAA is just reiterating what the "big dogs" have been doing for years or at least how they have reffed plays to the basket.
I think you're totally misunderstanding the POE (or maybe you're misunderstanding how the "big dogs" have been doing it). For years now, there has been an invisible Restricted Area under the basket in NCAA basketball. You see a huge crash and there's no whistle. If you ask why, you get the "under the basket" answer. The POE is not reiterating that philosophy; it is totally repudiating it.

This POE is saying that there is no restricted area anymore for NCAA basketball. If a defender takes a charge, but is directly under the basket, it is to be called a charge. "[T]here are no exceptions to the charge/block rules as to where the illegal contact occurs on the playing court." Position on the court is no longer to be a consideration in calling block/charge plays. Only the contact is to be considered.

Old School Sat Sep 29, 2007 09:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
I think you're totally misunderstanding the POE (or maybe you're misunderstanding how the "big dogs" have been doing it). For years now, there has been an invisible Restricted Area under the basket in NCAA basketball. You see a huge crash and there's no whistle. If you ask why, you get the "under the basket" answer. The POE is not reiterating that philosophy; it is totally repudiating it.

This POE is saying that there is no restricted area anymore for NCAA basketball. If a defender takes a charge, but is directly under the basket, it is to be called a charge. "[T]here are no exceptions to the charge/block rules as to where the illegal contact occurs on the playing court." Position on the court is no longer to be a consideration in calling block/charge plays. Only the contact is to be considered.
Thanks Scrapper1, that is definitely the way I understood it. It looks as though they are reaching for consistency here. Also, we're going to have more guys running underneath the basket to try and draw this type of foul. I think it's cheap ugly basketball to stand underneath the basket to try and draw a foul on a player driving towards the basket with the ball. To reward the defense is turning the game in the wrong direction. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

You have to wonder that the people in charge of making decisions on the rules today is totally disconnected from the game itself. It's like our president, who has no clue about the cost of gasoline because he doesn't have to buy his own gas, he is totally disconnected from this entire process. Therefore, he could care less if the price of gas goes up.

Dan_ref Sat Sep 29, 2007 09:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
I think you're totally misunderstanding the POE (or maybe you're misunderstanding how the "big dogs" have been doing it). For years now, there has been an invisible Restricted Area under the basket in NCAA basketball. You see a huge crash and there's no whistle. If you ask why, you get the "under the basket" answer. The POE is not reiterating that philosophy; it is totally repudiating it.

This POE is saying that there is no restricted area anymore for NCAA basketball. If a defender takes a charge, but is directly under the basket, it is to be called a charge. "[T]here are no exceptions to the charge/block rules as to where the illegal contact occurs on the playing court." Position on the court is no longer to be a consideration in calling block/charge plays. Only the contact is to be considered.
Hold on here Scrappy. The POE as posted here includes these words:

Quote:
Only when the following occurs shall the penalty not be applied:
1. The force of the contact by the offensive player is such that it is
inconsequential, but the defensive player fakes a foul.
2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)
This is the first time I've seen in words any reference to severity (actually lack of severity) of contact or a defender's position under the basket with regards to calling these fouls in ncaa-m. So while I agree that the 'restricted area' has been declared a no-no (yet again) we are finally given justification for passing on some calls which is quite similar to how it's been called for a while now.

And btw, I'm not even sure that no-calls on huge crashes under the basket are as common as you make them out to be. Most of us do actually call *something* on huge crashes, regardless of where they happen.

Scrapper1 Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
Thanks Scrapper1, that is definitely the way I understood it.
Sorry, everybody. Looks like I was the one who misinterpreted.

Scrapper1 Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
So while I agree that the 'restricted area' has been declared a no-no (yet again) we are finally given justification for passing on some calls which is quite similar to how it's been called for a while now.
Ok, since OS agrees with me, I realize I must be wrong on this. My thought had been that the main purpose of the POE was to do away with the Restricted Area mentality altogether. (Insert "Airplane" joke here.)

Here's basically how I was reading it: "As in any other situation, if you deem the contact to be insufficient to have legitimately displaced the defender, then it is still deemed incidental. But if the contact directly beneath the basket would have been called a charge at midcourt, then call it a charge!"

That may be an incorrect reading. I'm more than willing to hear alternatives.

Old School Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
This is the first time I've seen in words any reference to severity (actually lack of severity) of contact or a defender's position under the basket with regards to calling these fouls in ncaa-m. So while I agree that the 'restricted area' has been declared a no-no (yet again) we are finally given justification for passing on some calls which is quite similar to how it's been called for a while now.
This is a classic waffle! Don't call a foul if the defenders fakes a foul/flops! That's a damn technical! You see the waffle here. Either it is or it isn't! There is no in between or at least as far as officials are concerned, there shouldn't be. If you want consistency, it's a foul, one way or the other, period. There is no situation in which you are not putting air in the whistle here. If there is, then we are no better off than we where before.

Quote:
And btw, I'm not even sure that no-calls on huge crashes under the basket are as common as you make them out to be.
You may not be so sure, but the committee has made this a POE for this year, which means they disagree with you.

From the 2007-08 NCAA Men's Points of Emphasis.
This year, the charge and block situations occurring at the basket area are
the points of emphasis.

Dan_ref Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Ok, since OS agrees with me, I realize I must be wrong on this. My thought had been that the main purpose of the POE was to do away with the Restricted Area mentality altogether. (Insert "Airplane" joke here.)

Here's basically how I was reading it: "As in any other situation, if you deem the contact to be insufficient to have legitimately displaced the defender, then it is still deemed incidental. But if the contact directly beneath the basket would have been called a charge at midcourt, then call it a charge!"

That may be an incorrect reading. I'm more than willing to hear alternatives.
I can't disagree with that.

Dan_ref Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
snip.[/B]
Calm the f@ck down.

Old School Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
Calm the f@ck down.
huh? :confused:

Adam Sat Sep 29, 2007 03:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old School
This is a classic waffle! Don't call a foul if the defenders fakes a foul/flops! That's a damn technical! You see the waffle here. Either it is or it isn't! There is no in between or at least as far as officials are concerned, there shouldn't be. If you want consistency, it's a foul, one way or the other, period. There is no situation in which you are not putting air in the whistle here. If there is, then we are no better off than we where before.[/B]
Did you even read the effin POE? Lack of severity simply means the defender is not put at a disadvantage by the offensive initiated contact. No one falls down, no one is knocked into the concession stand, and no one comes out with bruised ribs.
Dan nor the POE mention a defender faking or flopping, where the he!! did you get that from what was said?

Back In The Saddle Sat Sep 29, 2007 07:02pm
What does the "under the basket" exception really mean?

2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)

So when the defender is under the basket, after the ball passes through the net. Unless it's different in NCAA ball, then we've got an exception for contact after the ball becomes dead. If NCAA is like FED, then unless it's flagrant or intentional, we'd ignore this any time the ball became dead but there was contact afterward.

And with the specific mention of "after the ball passes through the net," then even if the defender is under the hoop, it doesn't preclude a charge if the contact is before the ball passes through the net.

So, as I read it, the two exceptions are roughly:

1) incidental contact (a no-call anywhere on the floor)
2) non-intentional, non-flagrant contact after the ball is dead (same as if it occurred anywhere on the floor).

Am I missing something?

Old School Sat Sep 29, 2007 07:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Did you even read the effin POE? Lack of severity simply means the defender is not put at a disadvantage by the offensive initiated contact. No one falls down, no one is knocked into the concession stand, and no one comes out with bruised ribs.
Dan nor the POE mention a defender faking or flopping, where the he!! did you get that from what was said?
I got it from the book. Here is a reprint, plus NevadaRef requoted it too in the OP. Why don't you read before typing?

1. The force of the contact by the offensive player is such that it is inconsequential, but the defensive player fakes a foul.

Old School Sat Sep 29, 2007 08:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
What does the "under the basket" exception really mean?

2. When the defensive player has legally established a position under the
basket and contact occurs after the ball passes through the net, unless
the defensive player has been placed at a disadvantage (e.g., inability to
rebound, unable to put ball in play without delay.)

So when the defender is under the basket, after the ball passes through the net. Unless it's different in NCAA ball, then we've got an exception for contact after the ball becomes dead. If NCAA is like FED, then unless it's flagrant or intentional, we'd ignore this any time the ball became dead but there was contact afterward.

And with the specific mention of "after the ball passes through the net," then even if the defender is under the hoop, it doesn't preclude a charge if the contact is before the ball passes through the net.

So, as I read it, the two exceptions are roughly:

1) incidental contact (a no-call anywhere on the floor)
2) non-intentional, non-flagrant contact after the ball is dead (same as if it occurred anywhere on the floor).

Am I missing something?
[/SIZE][/FONT]
Now we're getting somewhere. Great point! No, you are not missing anything, in fact you may have helped me. Now I have a better understanding from a different prospective as to why it wasn't being called. I'm not so sure the ball or play is dead unless the last minute of the 2nd half after a made bucket. So the reasoning that the contact is to be ignored unless intentional or flagrant is a stretch. And we still have the problem of the flop which was intorduced this year. I don't know or understand how the heck they want us to call this!

I got more to add. i just got my men's NCAA mechanic manual in the mail. Page 13 Q&A with Hank Nichols.
Q: You've changed and communicated that a block/charge call in the lane on a drive to the basket becomes primary for the lead official. What is the reason for the change?
A: Sometimes the center official might get a better look, but I believe most of the time the lead official will have a great look at the play. Historically the philosophy of officiating dictates the the ref with the play coming toward him usually will have a better chance of getting the play called correctly.....

Hank feels that the lead making this call will make it more consistent. Doesn't really get to the heart of the matter here but I just thought I would add it.


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